Why Traditional Schools Are Losing Out

[brucereiter]

<<but having 2-3 year trained black belts teaching Kempo instead of 20-30 year trained people seems a big problem.>>

regarding teachers who have been teaching for "20-30" years. 17-18 or 27-28 years ago they too had only been teaching for 2-3 years.

start your own style neil, i think this or mma are the only things that will make you happy. well maybe not mma since you would have to learn their fundamantals and drills etc ... neiltaokoushu would be a great name for it ...

[P. Starr]

Personally, I think it's much easier to learn a "sportified" version of a martial art than the real, traditional art and that may be why some people prefer the watered-down, sportified thing.

Moreover, the "sportified" versions are usually very flowery and colorful whereas the traditional arts...aren't. The people who originally created them weren't interested in scoring points or looking pretty.

I teach traditional martial arts and I'd rather close down my classes than prostitute what I teach just to make a few bucks.

But you know, when I tell people that this is the traditional art and that they're going to be sore for a while and sweat down into their socks and run drills until they think they're going to puke, they're ready to jump in and do it!

I think the majority of people WANT to learn the real thing and when you assure them that that's what you teach [I]and that you teach it in the original way (because there is a difference), you'll see a real increase in membership and strong-spirited students.

Just my two yuan-

[fiercest tiger]

I agree with NEIL 100% most kung fu sifus cannot fight, they can spar there students and look good and show you breakdowns against this type of strike then you put them in a ring and it all goes to pieces.

There should be a traditional class for people that are after forms and learning to be an actor and a fighting class based on MMA to apply your system.



Garry

[Buby]

Yeah, but the old way isn't any better, as you can see from the way they fight. The old way they usually can't fight. Get it?

No train to fight = no can fight. Practice forms and think you're great all day doesn't a fighter make.

Yes Sir!!!!! Just look at the Wu style master vs. the Crane master, not one single decent move or combo. Some people say it was for charity and I still say they could have done much better. No disrespect to anyone, but thats the way I feel.

Forms are no goodieaahhh for fighting. The only way to get good at doing hands is by doing hands and the true test is with different people. just my 2 cents.

FT,
What up sifu? Give the kid a holla on msn if you can.

Bubyaaahhhh

[fiercest tiger]

Hey Bubsta,

Im at work right now bro, hopefully tomorrow or when i get home tonight you might be asleep though.

Garry

[SPJ]

Personally, both will exist.

There will be new or trending format for sports fighting.

There will also be ole schoolers.

Whatever the next new sports formats showup, the now prevalent formats will be grouped into the ole schoolers.

Lei Tai being the ole school. KuoShu and San Shou/Da being the prevalent formats.

Lei Tai has no protective gears and signing off not to sue the other for injury.

--

[dainos]

I agree with NEIL 100% most kung fu sifus cannot fight, they can spar there students and look good and show you breakdowns against this type of strike then you put them in a ring and it all goes to pieces.

There should be a traditional class for people that are after forms and learning to be an actor and a fighting class based on MMA to apply your system.



Garry

the key word there is MOST. i think that determans the fake and the true.
the shaolin made kung fu for selfdefense many generals did kung fu and won many battles.

[hungganyc]

"Traditional" means you can fight! Many fake sifus and schools are misusing the term "traditional" and giving the term "traditional" a bad name.

In todays society with kung fu books, videos, internet and magazines, there will always be more fake TCMA than real TCMA.

If a school emphasizes fighting as a tradition along with martial behavior, it won't lose out, no matter if it's kung fu, tae kwon do, or Karate.

The more appropriate and common sense question should be "Why Fake Traditional Schools are Losing Out".

I consider myself a TCMA Instructor not only because i teach forms and follow other customs in the chinese martial school; I consider myself traditional because it is the tradition in our style and school to train for fighting.

In our school we train students to fight against any person regardless of style, but we emphasize proper conduct & ettiquette so that students will be responsible with their skills. We are recognized as a TCMA school in our community and happened to be surrounded by karate and MMA, but we attract the most students in our community too.

The MMA school down the street teaches anyone who will pay alot of things which could obviously hurt someone,but they don't teach students to use their skills responsibly. alot of the young MMA students walk around pumped up looking for an opportunity fight and test their skills, but i think they're looking for trouble. I've met some of their students who seem angry and have violent tendencies. Many of the students in this particular school look for street fights and have had issues in high school and with the law because of their undiscipline training. Because this particular MMA school doesn't emphasize traditional behavior or conduct in martial artists, the students are out of control, but i must also mention that other MMA schools in our area behave the same way. Without tradition, it's like giving a irresponsible person or a child a gun. I won't be as shallow like others and assume that ALL MMA schools are undiscipline and violent .

[PangQuan]

every true martial artist knows that adaption is the key to survival.

see where i said that? read it again.

regardless of what anyone thinks, there are traditional masters out there that can fight. if there is one or one hundred thousand, whats the difference other than how much is there. one means it is. simply.

hell i bet you there is a logger out there that can fight better than many MA people.

think about it.

no matter what "style" people choose, there will always be people from every venue that can fight with it.

want to know why? ill tell you.

its dependant on the individuals themselves. human nature will ALWAYS prevail in any thing humans do. if someone is a natrual born killer, they are. doesnt matter what "style" they do.

style is a pointless prerequisite. it doesnt matter, as long as you have the know how to make sense of it all and learn to put it to use.

[SPJ]

3 pronged approach;

In the late 80's and early 90', my bro has a Kuo Shu Guan in Pan Chiao, Taipei county, Taiwan.

He nicknamed the school has 3 departments: Yoga-Tai Chi, Kung Fu-Tai Chi and fight club.

1. Yoga-Tai Chi: some basic stances and short forms for breathing exercise and fitness.

2. Kung Fu-Tai Chi; push hands, bag works, Qin Na and throw, etc.

3. fight club: basic punch/kick and throws, fight with gears and rules in the ring.

Guess what. The first department took off. It was so popular that the students had to book or reserve 1year and half ahead of class time.

only a few took # 2 and even fewer stayed long enough to really do it right.

#3 are just not so serious people having fun.

after a while, #1 was all we do.

then we started to seriously ask what we were doing. Just some demo and a lot of fitness classes.

Such is the life.

[BlueTravesty]

Basically WHY DON'T YOU ADAPT??? Why don't you let the CUSTOMER, THE PEOPLE, decide what they want, instead of sticking to your old ways, which are obviously obsolete?

Isn't that why so many MA schools specialize in "Daycare-Ryu" these days? After all, when your client-base is composed of overprotective and/or possibly abusive parents (Why does MY child have to do horse stance? He has a glandular disorder!) and your student base is mostly whiny snot-nosed kids, you will have problems. Think "Timmy quits halfway through class in order to read 'Naruto' in the corner and eat the donuts his mom gave him."

I've been looking for a place where I can do what I want, practice staff if I want, do MMA oriented sparring if I want, and the only places that are at all flexible are the MMA places.

There are actually a couple of ways to accomplish this, though the hardest of these ways (can you guess which one?) would seem to be the surest to succeed.

1.) Buy a staff. Buy a video that teaches staff. Then join an MMA class. Then practice the staff while inside of the MMA class before or after sparring.

2.) Buy a house with a nice, big backyard or other training space. Buy a staff. Buy a video that teaches staff. Hire a sparring partner. Spar the partner "MMA style" and when you're done, practice the staff.

3.) Learn an MA style that includes staff in its curriculum (yes, you may have to spend whole years to learn the boring, non-staff elements as well, but those are both fun and worthwhile as well.) Get a good solid, grounding in that style. Go to an MMA school, learn, spar, and even compete. Get a good grounding in MMA. Open a school, and teach your unique, eclective blend of both. Then "let the CUSTOMER, THE PEOPLE decide what they want." That sort of establishment sounds like a pretty cool idea, as it may be free of the "ego-emissions" that plague many TMA schools ("no way, only the mma schools do that!") and slightly fewer MMA schools ("no way, only the tma schools do that!") Good luck with that.

(BTW/P.S.- despite my mockery, Daycare-Ryu does have one effective technique that the children in particular have mastered. It is called the "Aimeikyu-ill" form. "Rotavirus transmission" is deadliest technique in this form. Strongest man no can defense!)

[ngokfei]

I guess it has to be divided into 3 catagories:

1. Martial Art
2. Combat/Gladiator Training
3. Hobby

1. Martial Arts to me teach the whole package. health, Knowledge culture & self defense. The important thing here is self defense.

2. Combat/Gladiator Training is the MMA, Sport aspect of the Martial Arts. Just like boxing, the majority will disappear as they get up there in age. Some will coach/teach (if they have that skill) but most will just remember the "glory days".

3. The hobby individual is there for the short time. Kiddie-karate, mcdojo, cardiokick, japanese/korean Taichi etc. So it really doesn't matter what they learn. The commerical flash school/gym is for them. So this is where places like USSD, Shaolin Monks, Contemporary Wushu, etc. all promoting themselves as something they are not.

As for fighting skills:

Compare a MMA practitioner vs a MA Student. You obviously know that a MMA person can and wants to fight (very fit, perhaps a couple of scars and those tattoos .
The MA person is unassuming (average joe/jane) so their skills (if they trained correctly) will be a surprise for the agressor who doesn't feel they are a threat.

The funny thing here is that the "Traditional Martial Arts" and the Hardcore MMA" people have more in common then not. Usually a small space, worn equipment, etc. Their results are strong. So what's the percentage of students from the MMA schools actually step into the ring? Its probably identical to the number of the Traditional Martial Arts Students who also compete.

[SevenStar]

Personally, I think it's much easier to learn a "sportified" version of a martial art than the real, traditional art and that may be why some people prefer the watered-down, sportified thing.

gimme a break. even among CMA, the pretty, flowery kicks are harder to learn than the simpler, combat effective ones.

Moreover, the "sportified" versions are usually very flowery and colorful whereas the traditional arts...aren't. The people who originally created them weren't interested in scoring points or looking pretty.

the traditional thai styles are WAY more flowery than muay thai. traditional northern kung fu still had high kicking, its a staple of many northern styles, no?

I teach traditional martial arts and I'd rather close down my classes than prostitute what I teach just to make a few bucks.

good on ya. As with anything, it's a matter of perspective. train them for san shou. it's sport, but at the same time will teach them lessons they will never learn simply by training with you.

I think the majority of people WANT to learn the real thing and when you assure them that that's what you teach [I]and that you teach it in the original way (because there is a difference), you'll see a real increase in membership and strong-spirited students.

1. most students DON'T want the real thing. Heck, most students do not train in order to learn how to fight. they train to get in shape, they train to relieve stress, they train because they want to compete, they train because they want to do what they see in movies. Most people will admit that they did not start training to learn to fight.

2. I'm willing to bet that nobody on this planet teaches the ORIGINAL way. the arts and times have changed so much over time that it's ridiculous to think so.

[Ray Pina]

Basically WHY DON'T YOU ADAPT??? Why don't you let the CUSTOMER, THE PEOPLE, decide what they want, instead of sticking to your old ways, which are obviously obsolete?

Because when you let someone who walks in the door with zero martial experience dictate how they should train to someone who has over 20 years of training and fighting experience, and the person listens and changes, you produce students with empty training.

Then they go and open kwoons high on form and talk and you wind up with what we have today: a bunch of gutless, worthless kung fu practioners.

[neilhytholt]

2.) Buy a house with a nice, big backyard or other training space. Buy a staff. Buy a video that teaches staff. Hire a sparring partner. Spar the partner "MMA style" and when you're done, practice the staff.

Yeah, I already have a staff, and I already took staff. When I say work on staff, I mean, I want a partner to practice staff with.

So this is probably the best idea. I asked around and I've found several teachers whose schools have closed down who are teaching out of their houses. Right now, they don't want to work on misc. stuff but I think in about 6-12 months they'll probably be much more open to the idea. Then maybe they'll go for somebody hiring them to be attack dummies.