Science of Qigong

[Hulei Boy]

Just was wondering, what is the general opinion of qigong here? Do most folks think it is mystical or scientific?

To me it seems that the qigong movement are used to simply to promote circulation of blood and lymph throughout the system. All the major acu-points are located in areas where there are many capillaries and lymph together. Massaging them would help to better eliminate wastes and improve circulation.

Some of the more difficult qigong moves would help to increase the suppleness and flexibility of connective tissues. This would also help increase strength and flexibility as one gets older. Also, some of the stance training qigong such as Yiquan stances or santi shi, would help to strengthen the ligaments and tendons as well as improving mental focus. The regulated breathing would help calm and rejuvinate the body.

So can qigong pretty much be summed up as a physical science? These methods of movement, standing, proper breathing, and acu-point massage seem to be common in all forms of qigong.

Peace,
Rob

[mantis108]

Just was wondering, what is the general opinion of qigong here? Do most folks think it is mystical or scientific?

To me it seems that the qigong movement are used to simply to promote circulation of blood and lymph throughout the system. All the major acu-points are located in areas where there are many capillaries and lymph together. Massaging them would help to better eliminate wastes and improve circulation.

Some of the more difficult qigong moves would help to increase the suppleness and flexibility of connective tissues. This would also help increase strength and flexibility as one gets older. Also, some of the stance training qigong such as Yiquan stances or santi shi, would help to strengthen the ligaments and tendons as well as improving mental focus. The regulated breathing would help calm and rejuvinate the body.

So can qigong pretty much be summed up as a physical science? These methods of movement, standing, proper breathing, and acu-point massage seem to be common in all forms of qigong.

Peace,
Rob

I believe you have pretty much summed up most of the run of the mill Qigong teachers' marketing lines. The truth is there are many degrees of truth. The answer lies in how far down the rabbit hole are you willing to go? I'd suggest reading "The Tao of Physics" and "A Short History of Myth", and watch the DVD "What the Beep Do We Know?"

The Tao of Physics would give you some basic knowledge, thoughts on mysticism and perspectives of Quantum physics which is a suitable science model for explain Qi IHMO.

The Short History of Myth can give you a good idea behind the use of forms in Kung Fu/Qigong.

The DVD would provide some interesting info and perspective of the application of Quantum physics in activities such as pugilism, Qigong and/or meditation.

I believe Qigong in general is meant to be the preparation of meditation which is really the goal of the exercise. Many self proclaimed Qigong teachers these days aren't really qualified to teach meditation so they would focus on Qigong and give you the view that you shared.

Meanwhile I would like to share this reply that I wrote a little while ago about the Chinese model based on the Yijing (classic of change) worldview.

I am not an expert on medical science but I will share my view based on the Chinese martial arts perspective - combative anatomy. It is personal understanding and by no means an advice to exercise accordingly.

First and foremost, muscle play an important role in work (energy producing) in western anatomy. What type of work a muscle group does or rather can produce depends on the composition of different muscle fibers that are presented (ie slow twitch, fast twitch A or B). So then you train accordingly with aerobic or anaerobic to get the desired result in the western sports model which does not necessarily view stretching as work or energy producing. Bones and tendons don't even matter that much.

Chinese model however sees things a bit differently based on Xue (blood - yin attribute) and Qi (enery - yang attribute). Xue Qi is the Liangyi (two archetypes) which is yin & yang that are comparable and compatible to the yin yang of the "universe" Heavan and earth (Tian Di). In human term, Yin Yang expressed as 2 attributes Jing (essence) and Shen (perceptual-preceptive faculty) commonly known as Jing Shen (the spirit) precept.

In pugilism, Shen expresses its intelligent attributes through the 4 limbs (eyes, ears, arms, and legs); while, Jing manifests its brilliant attributes through the 4 extremities (bone-teeth, tendon-nails, boold-hair, and muscles-tongue). This is the Bagua (8 trigrams) of pugilism. In other words, pugilism is to "honor" the Heaven and Earth through exercising the Jing Shen. So you see why Jing Shen has a place in the Ba Fa (8 protocols or methods) of Pugilism. We can not exercise the bone or boold per se. But we can exercise on tendon (jin) and muscles (ji). However, ji is also relatively softer and on the service which by the way is considered similar in nature to skin processing yin attribute. This in Chinese view is not where "true" strength or power came from. It is the deeper layer and the relatively harder yang attribute, which the tendon has, that provides that "true" strength. The most crucial tendons, which are elastic sometime membrane like substances (collagen?) that have the property not unlike rubber band, are in the lower limbs. This is where "energy" is stored or rather resided. Surely when stretched and trained properly, they "yield" (pun intended) the most work or energy producing. No wonder in most "traditional" styles, strecthing the lower limbs is regarded as the priority. Strong kicks comes from strong tendon and it's an expression of the yang attribute. It is in this work that we see Kung Fu in its most fundamental form.

So Kung Fu is holistic and organic. It is a unification of mind, body and spirit as discussed above.

BTW, Shen is often translated as vitality as well. Hope this make sense.

Mantis108

[Hulei Boy]

Hey Mantis108,

Thanks for the good response and all of the references. I have heard other good things about that DVD as well. I'll have to check that out.

Interesting side note about the rubber band analogy of the body. My teacher said that when he would push hands with his Zhaobao Taiji teacher, Xiong Wei, it was like his body was a big rubber band or ball. Very sensative and supple and yet at the same time had tremendous springy power.

Peace,
Rob

[alquimista]

DR Yang says "the correct definition of Qigong is any training or study dealing with Qi wich takes a long time and a lot of effort". He also says "The word Qi has a wider and more general definition than most people think. It does not refer only to the energy circulating in the human body (Ren Qi)" ... "it is found in the heavens (Tian Qi), in the earth (Di Qi), and in every living thing."

Qigong is not only the study and practice of Qi in your body (mystical or scientific) ... Qigong is also the study of the patterns and cycles of nature recorded in the Yi Jing (Book of Changes; 1122 B.C.).

Taoist Qigong follows the "Way of Tao" where everything in nature (man, animals, plants, moon, sun, stars, ... are ruled by the same pattern. Qigong is not just to meditate or improve strenght in your body ... is a way of living that takes you in harmony with everything around you.

There are tales about Lao Tzu, the most famous taoist master ever. I advice you the book "Nine nights with the taoist master - Deluxe study edition" by Master Waysun Liao. It will change completly your vision about qigong and taoism.

If you want to read about qigong theory, history and foundation i advice you "The root of chinese qigong" by DR Yang Jwing Ming.

Enjoy,
Jorge

[RiceWine]

An Analytic Review of Studies on Measuring the Effects of Qi Gong byChen, Kevin.

Basically, they find that western concepts can't explain what is happening, but that Qi Gong actually exists.

Mind you this is one scientific study, but then again, there aren't that many out there.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I recommend Rick Barrett's book, "Through the Western Gate".. it is a great resource with references and examples.. although the measurements in some of the studies are linked to magnetic fields, micro-currents of bio-electricity, resonance entrainment, and frequency modulation.. the studies are clear in their conclusions that there is an active matrix of energy relationships that are in the earliest stages of understanding by western methodologies.. The studies are equally clear that trained people can amplify and manipulate these energies in manners that produce predictable results as well as surprisingly unpredictable effects indicating the shallow understanding we actually have of this exciting field.. The coherence of these energies has been measured with extremely sensitive equipment and it seems that, with training, people can effect a high degree of system coherence achieving some unusual results.. Changes in the human energy field(s) can be reliably measured up to 15 feet away and the scientists observing are quick to point out that this is a crude measurement compared to what they expect future technologies will reveal..

Simply because western technology assigns labels like magnetism, bio-electricity, resonant frequencies, etc.. doesn't nullify the eastern notion of Qi, it simply sees it from a different perspective.. Regardless of the perspective, the potential is staggering by both east and west accounts.. central to this important field of study is the link to consciousness.. so important that the energies will generally conform to the framework of the individual aspect of consciousness such that the skeptic will have the experience they expect and the proponent will have the experience they expect.. consciousness will shape the energies into the experience.. so, i guess it comes down to what someone really believes about their existence.. are you content with the ststus quo, or are you willing to explore the potential..

Be well..

[fiercest tiger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruB0yghbcUY


Can someone explain this?

Garry

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I can't explain it.. but, too many opportunities for sleight of hand.. what's under the table? magnets?... i don't dismiss this out-of-hand, but i am a skeptic.. videos are too easily manipulated.. if i could see it live, or feel the energy and found it to be genuine, i would become the most devoted student.. I have seen less dramatic examples and found them to be genuine, but the person was inconsistent with the application..

Be well..

[mawali]

Interestingly enough many qigong enthusiasts will look down on science as debasing their art since they say that without qi, qigong, and as an extension, would be useless!
Science is not intended and can never be used to instill common sense in people but it can sure weed out the absurdity in walking on water skill, jumping on roofs,
no hit punch/empty force punch and other vodu qigong skills.
Can faith be explained by science? No. We know it is important and it is a personal expression of one self but the extent of it cannot be measured.

Qigong can be scientific but it is presently in the mystical realm of things because of how it is portrayed. Add qi and it now borders on superstition because most people do not know what qi is. It can be spiritual, religious or otherwiese but to reach a qigong state we need body structual requirement to train oneself. No qi needed. If someone says show me you qi, where would it be located? or your qi is messed up, where does one look? Shall I comb my hair to find qi?

Can I see qi? Show it to me.
Can I measure qi?
Can I feel qi? Not directly! I can feel the presence of an energy field if I do open/close or push/pull so is that qi or is that energy? I can sense/feel heat/cold/emptiness/fullness expressed as 'taffy apple stickiness' and there is nothing there! All of this is expressed in zhanzhuang as basics and open close and raise hands in many systems so try it!

Perhaps we can use the phrase 'qi manifestation' or 'manifestation of qi' as a substitute ( I do not know!)
Added suggestions!

[fiercest tiger]

This guy is a famous doctor in china, i dont know why he would fake it and lose face to his family, also a T.V reporter wouldnt waste there time to air such crap? There is the phone number and address for this guy if u want to visit him also??

I would love to believe its real in this clip, i hope so but the table iscovered but how does he explode the bottle like that?

The cutting with the clever is more Saan Da spritual type chi kung?

Garry

[mantis108]

No offense but what's the difference between magic tricks and feasts like this?

I am not accusing him of conjurer of cheap tricks but if that's really the attainment of Qigong then I would rather not learn it at all. BTW, he didn't demonstrate this amazing Qigong on a live an uncooperative person. The point is what good does it do to the general public if it only works on inanimated objects but not on a live person or animal for that matter?

I see some thing not quite kosher (ie towel cover bottle, plastic container inside wasn't shown, head peekling out from a door behind when the brick are being moved, etc) but I have no interest in disproving or approving anything. So...

Whatever rocks your boat floats.

Mantis108

[fiercest tiger]

Same here mantis 108, i hope its true and i would like to have such a skill, but there are many people claiming this stuff as well in kung fu you have the same type of B.S.

[n00854180t]

Qigong can be scientific but it is presently in the mystical realm of things because of how it is portrayed. Add qi and it now borders on superstition because most people do not know what qi is. It can be spiritual, religious or otherwiese but to reach a qigong state we need body structual requirement to train oneself. No qi needed. If someone says show me you qi, where would it be located? or your qi is messed up, where does one look? Shall I comb my hair to find qi?

Can I see qi? Show it to me.
Can I measure qi?
Can I feel qi? Not directly! I can feel the presence of an energy field if I do open/close or push/pull so is that qi or is that energy? I can sense/feel heat/cold/emptiness/fullness expressed as 'taffy apple stickiness' and there is nothing there! All of this is expressed in zhanzhuang as basics and open close and raise hands in many systems so try it!

Perhaps we can use the phrase 'qi manifestation' or 'manifestation of qi' as a substitute ( I do not know!)
Added suggestions!

The ability to see, measure or feel a certain thing in our reality is not a good test of its existence. Ponder this: can you see your ability to sense your brain's (and therefore your body's) position in local spacetime? Measure it? Feel it? No, you can't do any of these things (arguably the last one, but you're really feeling your position in space, not the ability itself (you can't turn it on and off, for instance)). However, we all know that we have this ability, as it is demonstrated any time one is in a dark room.

Our reality at its finest details behaves most analogously to a computer built solely to compute this existence (e.g., the interactions of matter and forces) and algorithmically increase its complexity at every "step" in its execution (a Planck length of time). I don't say this lightly, and I've been researching advanced physics for some time (including theoretical qm research not incorporated into the standard model), and have suspected that our universe is a giant computer (both simulation *and* machine, so the program is its own CPU) for several years now. Certain researchers are coming to similar conclusions (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.03/play.html?pg=4).

Furthermore, human senses are deceiving. For instance, your eyes. You trust your eye implicitly to convey what is happening in your reality. Yet, your brain compensates for your eyes' inadequacy at every moment. Case in point: your eye, at the very center, has no photoreceptors. This is because the optic nerve connects to the eye at this point. But, do you have a small blank spot in your vision? No. This is because your brain filters and compensates the data from your eyes, and fools you into not seeing the small blind spot in the middle. It can do this because each eye sees the blank spot that the other is missing. There is a simple optical illusion that can demonstrate this.

Current understanding of the interactions of forces that can't be seen, and especially those caused by organisms, isn't nearly advanced enough to discount qi, or to explain it.

[JohnnyMnemonic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruB0yghbcUY


Can someone explain this?

Garry

I can't tell. The water in the bowl moves like a magnet underneath the table is pulling it. Or it could really be happening.

The theory behind what he is doing is sound. I have never seen anyone do what he has so it is hard to say if it is real or not.


What you can see is something that is a lesson for anyone.

Do your kung fu teachers tell you to watch and think? Mine didn't either. I mostly had to figure it out on my own. They were all the "we hide the real stuff" kinds of teachers.

If you want to learn kung fu for real, watch everything and ask yourself if you understand it. For instance. I would bet money not too many people are paying much attention to the man doing the demo. Other than to note he is old, chinese, and doing a very cool trick.

An observant kung fu man would notice the posture the old man takes when he performs the trick.

An intelligent kung fu man would ask themselves, "why is the old man doing that when he does the demonstrations"?

The patient and hard working kung fu student would eventually learn that the old man has paid a price for his ability. His body has become slightly deformed.

The thinking kung fu man would ask themselves.....Do I want to do a kung fu that will cripple or deform my body? Do I really want power and abilities that much?

[crossingtalon]

I have been practicing Qigong for just over a year now. I am still very new to it and it's principles. I consider myself a beginner, although I have been doing it long enough now to know that it is real and there are truths to the myth. I use it to meditate, relieve stress, achieve good health and receive wisdom. Based on my own experiences there has been enough evidence to make me believe that there is much to be learned from this practice both on a wisdom and spirtual level. With regards to the myth that supernatural powers can be achieved, I believe it is possible to attain them in the higher levels of attainment but not without a lot of practice. My personal view is that we may be better off without these gifts. I have a feeling that with such gifts comes great responsibility and temptations to use them in the wrong way. I study from a very skilled Qigong practicioner who prefers not to be called a master (Although I believe she is a master). She tells the story of how Qigong allowed her to be cured from terminal cancer over 20 years ago. She has helped heal many people who were ill with cancer and other diseases. The Qigong that I have learned about is all about harnessing and using the good energy of the universe. On a side note, I have noticed a curious similarity with the "Force" that was used in the movie "Star Wars" and the "Qi" that is used in QiGong. The older I get I seem to find that there always seems to be some truth in most myths.
Whether you believe in Qigong or not is up to you. My humble view is that Qigong, if done correctly, is one of many ways to be healthy, grow spiritually and evolve as a human being.