No Sex

[nairb]

Hi Scott,

Thanks for the very quick responses. No offense, but these are all things anyone can read in a Suzuki or Alan Watts book. Read them already. Thanks...

Peace.

Hi nairb,

Please do not confuse not getting the answer you want with skirting the issue. I answered as I intended. If my answer did not give you the answer you were looking for perhaps I interpreted your questions differently than you had intended.

I am happy to respond again.

It is immaterial whether you mentioned the Dali Lama or the Pope or not. They were MY examples not yours and I used them because they are well-known public figures. My comments should not be taken to imply they do not have superior spiritual development either. There is no way for me to know. They were just an example of individuals many are familiar with that the circumstances to which I referred to may apply.

Sex has nothing to do with the Middle Way! The Middle Way is an attitude that individuals live their lives by that is reflected in their actions. Actions alone mean nothing! Change and development occur internally. Our outward actions are merely a reflection of that inner attitude. The Middle Way is recommended in order to avoid pitfalls. That is to make the path easier to tread. Extremes tend to bring with them consequences that create disorder in our lives, either outwardly, emotionally, or physically. Too much disorder makes treading the path we have chosen more difficult and distracting.

Sex is an activity; activities have nothing to do with enlightenment. If they did then you are correct, everyone or most everyone would be enlightened. Enlightenment is an internal state of being, not an outward affectation or behavior. What actions you perform have little to do with your state of being, mental attitude and perspective does!

When one speaks of meditation they must first specify which form of meditation they are speaking of and how it is intended to be used and for what gain. Meditation encompasses a number of mental exercises, each may be used and abused as any other method or tool may be used or abused. At any rate meditation is not a necessary requirement for enlightened to occur. That does not mean it cannot be helpful. To accommodate ourselves to Tao is to neither force ourselves to meditate, nor to avoid meditation. To either require it or to negate its usefulness is to be out of accord with Tao. If you wish to do meditate, do so; if you don’t like it, then don’t it, there are other methods one may use. Meditation is merely a tool with which some find benefit, and others do not.

I would refer you to the Bhagavad-Gita. Krishna outlines three primary paths to realization, a term I prefer to enlightenment because in my opinion it is more descriptive of what actually occurs. The paths are: The Path of Action, The Path of Devotion and the Path of Wisdom or Knowledge. With each Path the individual applies himself a bit differently. With The Path of Action the individual learns to perform actions selflessly without concern for credit or blame. With The Path of Devotion the individual learns to Love selflessly. With the Path of Knowledge, one investigates reality using philosophical inquiry. Each Path uses a different method to lull or condition the ego into releasing its limiting hold on the mind. Each path is appropriate for different personalities. That is not to imply these are the only three paths available. Hui-Neng the 6th patriarch of Ch’an recommends that “useful expedients” be used for each person according to their temperament. What is important is to understand that all methods are merely tools, the finger pointing to the moon. Whose finger or which finger is doing the pointing is of less importance as long as it points you towards the moon. Once the moon is realized, we may discard the finger (tool).

I do not recommend anything in particular. Each person will be attracted to a method that speaks to them. They will each find their own “useful expedient”. My purpose is to express cautions over blind adherence to the tools used and point out that a tool is merely a tool and not the goal. As long as an individual finds their tool of choice beneficial to achieving their goal then I encourage continuance, but I would still caution against unhealthy attachment to the tool. It is the goal that is important not the tool one uses.

You may ask then, which tool is the best? I would respond there is no “best tool”. We each have our own temperaments and we will gravitate towards the tools that have meaning for us. It s not the tool we use that may cause impediments it is our attachment to the tool we use that could create a hindrance to our continued progress. Since it is not a race to the finish line there is no need to be preoccupied with being led astray. We will all be led astray, that is part of learning to tread the path. There is value and meaning in the lesson even when we get sidetracked or regress from time to time. It is all part of the ebb and flow of Tao.

[nairb]

Ok, I didn't mention the no emission type sex, but then again I wouldn't consider that sex. Or good sex at least. I'm coming more from a Buddhist perspective anyway; the Taoists seem to have a lot of deviant potholes to fall into.

I already mentioned something similar in another post, but what is the point? If Shakyamuni Buddha has said you are already enlightened why do anything? What is the unique physical experience? Or mental experience? Why pursue them on a particular path with effort? Has everyone been scammed?

If you could just say, well, everyone is enlightened or has the Tao already why do anything else? The Taoists certainly did try something else by conserving their jing, etc. The Buddhist schools are trying to do something by meditation when they already know all the Sutras; and the Sutras pretty much spill the beans on everything.

Just my opinions.

Greetings..

It could be.. but, equally, control of the functions so as to express one's sexual nature without loss of jing is equally viable.. one can have a complete sexual experience while recycling semen, no external loss.. and, no diminishing of the sensations, the best of both perspectives..

I suggest that the Tao provides a unique physical experience for our physical existence.. in doing so, it seems to be contrary to Tao to reject some of the most intense and natural expressions of the physical existence in an attempt to gain insight into Tao.. in other words, the insights are right here, right now, why dull the very experiences that Tao provides.. Human nature seems to believe that we must pay a price for everything, that life is a negotiation.. i.e.: i can't get the reward without paying the price of difficult disciplines, abstinence, etc... we already have the rewards, all we lack is clarity and awareness.. which is available as a simple choice, we are what we choose to be.. if you believe that years of hard work is needed to gain the rewards, the Tao makes it so.. if you accept that you already "have it" the Tao will make it so to the degree you actually believe it.. It is noteworthy to note that Taiji, as well as all of reality begins at the junction of consciousness and the mind.. all things flow from that point from our perspective..

Be well..

[DarinHamel]

Why does discorperating imply a relativity to time? Time may be relavitive, but it is not an illusion. Motion (ascension?) is relative too, but that is not an illusion either. All relativity implies is a larger picture, not that there is no picture.

Hi Darin,

This is very difficult to explain but I will try;

Let us start with the concept of ONE. With ONE there is no time or space. This is because in order to have time we must have movement or change. In order to have space there must be something to occupy the space, but in order to notice there is something within the space there must be more than one something to perceive. For there to be something to perceive we must have something to contrast with the other something or we won't perceive anything at all! If we only have ONE, we cannot have change which indicates time or a differentiation of things which indicates space. Therefore, with only ONE there is no time or space. In order for time and space to occur ONE must become at least TWO and these two must take turns being apparent. The TWO identifies space, the changing measures time. It is merely the manifestation of Yin and Yang so we will use these terms.

So to review, we start with Tao (ONE), which divides into Yin and Yang (TWO). This division is apparent (pretend) only. Tao is not inherently dual; it is conventionally or arbitrarily divided for a specific reason. That is, is Tao is pretending to be TWO to serve a particular purpose.

Now that we have TWO, Yin and Yang, they must alternate in some manner in order to create time. One must change into the other, but since they are both really ONE, they will actually only “appear” to alternate. It is MIND (That Which Perceives) that pretends Yin and Yang alternate. Since they are inherently Tao, they are not truly changing at all; MIND pretends they are changing. For Yin to be dominant or appear to be separate from Yang, Yang must be non-apparent. MIND must pretend not to notice Yang when Yin is apparent (dominant) and pretend not to notice Yin when Yang is dominant. While Yang is apparent MIND pretends not to remember it is really Tao; when Yin is apparent MIND pretends not to remember it is really Tao.

So MIND (Tao) fragments its perception thus creating time and space in order to serve a specific purpose and we call this purpose life or existence or being! Since it is all pretend it is merely an illusion. Nothing is really happening, it is Tao at play! Since there is nothing really happening and it is all pretend we can choose to play the game and agree to pretend to progress and grow or we can choose to see beyond the game to the essence of it all wherein there is nothing to do but BE!

Time and space are relative yes, they are relative to the perspective with which we choose to perceive, but they are not inherently real. They are pretend in order for Tao to play!

MIND does not need to exist for time to exist if that is what you are implying. Tao does, but are you implying MIND and Tao are the same? The laws of nature/physics do not suspend themselves when no one is looking. You are sounding like the school of thought that says if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around it is silent.

[DarinHamel]

You guys are much more studied than I am on these matters but I just have a few questions-

For the non-abstinence people - if you should have sex naturally then why do Buddhist and Christian monks - including Zen masters - go thru a period of celibacy and meditation before achieving any level of enlightenment? To me these two groups seem to have the highest hit rate of achieving some level of enlightenment.

If you say you must have sex because strong animals are natural and have sex - how many animals have achieved enlightenment? That argument just seems like a way to justify doing whatever you want and you want sex obviously.

For the Taoist experts - I thought the fundamental first tenent of Taoism is conversion of the jing to chi by first conserving the jing (semen). Isn't this a very big argument for abstinence in Taoism.

These questions are based on the assumptions that Shakyamuni Buddha, his Arhats are at the top of the enlightenment pyramid going down to and including the Chinese Ch'an (Zen) patriarchs. I'm not sure where the middle eastern religions fall on the scale, except that some of the Christian monks and Sufis certainly also attained some level of enlightenment. BTW, some Sufis practice abstinence and some do not. The orthodox Sufis follow the example of Mohammed, which includes marriage. I'm not sure what percentage of those married Sufis achieve a level of enlightenment. Zen in Japan also allows for practitioners from the married salary man community. I understand they are not expected to achieve much tho. They are probably just for cash flow. Also, I assume the Taoist immortals have some level of enlightenment, somewhere below the Zen patriarchs if you had to rank them.

BTW - Congratulations on the achievements of the people on this thread. It sounds like your doing well along the path.

It feels good to say that we know better than the ancients here in 2006 and that we dont need to abstain from sex to get enlightened. It also feels good to say that we are already enlightened so there is nothing to seek. That is a very seductive doctine, but in my opinion it is completely wrong. We need total conservation or there is no conservation. We also need to strive or there is no accomplishment.

Just one mans opinion...seriously, no one else agrees with me nairb.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Scott,

Thanks for the very quick responses. No offense, but these are all things anyone can read in a Suzuki or Alan Watts book. Read them already. Thanks...

Peace.

LOL!! Well what do you expect?? The Truth is the Truth!

The Truth doesn't change, only the way it is expressed or communicated changes!

[Nexus]

nairb,

You are fortunate Scott has internet as his mountain temple, or else you'd have to climb many stone steps before he struck you with his zen stick!

And with that said, here is a poem I wrote in September of 2002 that is in response to your questions Darin about time, mind, tao RE: Discorporation. Or perhaps it's just a plug for my non-existent upcoming book on Zen poetry! LOL!

Ouch my nose!!! And the tears fell.
The zen master made my nose swell.
A sharp twist and there I was,
Staring at him just because,
My awareness had been lacking,
My zen practices were slacking,
The sound of his zen-stick was 'cracking!'

Out in the garden, flowers blooming,
The ancient teacher peacefully grooming,
Is this perfume I smell? Is he asking me?
I reply, 'It smells most scentfully'.
Punished I was, for I answered wrongly,
His Way is strict, and emphasized strongly.

Five years past, nothing has worked well,
At the market I took my zen robes to sell.
The zen master tried to explain heaven and hell.
Said they were here on earth, whats the worth?
In trying to figure things out, i've given up,
I'm out of luck, nothing makes sense anymore.
The ol' master has me scrubbing the floor.

The zendo incense burn, sweet lavender in my nose,
I chose it, rosier then most, with vanilla skies above me,
Is this the divine experience?
A grimace came from the master, he told me that
I should meditate faster. But how do I do that?
There, quiet and still, I sat.

Graduation day! Am I zen master now?
All the other students are smiling, quite proud,
But how? My practices have not removed my cloud.
The master came by, to shake my hand, and smile,
My feet in the sand, this land, shaking me apart.
I have nothing now that I did not have from the start.

Oh Master, have I wasted myself? Is this Zen?
I have read all the books on the shelf!
Why do I remain unchanged? All the others seem rearranged!
A tear rolled from my eye, and knowing my Master,
Whose not the least bit shy,
He reached towards me, is he going to brush the tears from my cheek?
In this time of pain, when I feel so weak?

Ouch my nose!!! And the tears fell.
The zen master made my nose swell.
Yet suddenly there was no heaven or hell.
The pain was there, although only an illusion,
The master patted my head, clearing away my confusion.

So this is Zen at last I thought?
Finally understanding what the old master taught.

[nairb]

Haven't you heard? This is the New Age. Everyone is already fully realized and enlightened! Have plenty of animal sex, frolic in the woods, booze/drug it up...eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die! Write a book about how easy and great it is like those LSD guys back in the 60's.

Just joking. I'm still not clear how one can say they are realized or enlightened without going thru some of the processes indicated by enlightened individuals. I guess that's why the Zen school have things like the robe and bowl to indicate transfer of the Dharma. I think one of the errors of people in Western countries is they read about Zen masters who were enlightened after a night of hard drinking and *****ing and they don't know about the years of meditation and effort that went before.

Why are people in Asia are so concerned with lineages in martial arts and spiritual cultivation? Only a small percentage will ever get it even in the best schools. I think one of the Ch'an patriarchs in China said something like out of all the hundreds of millions of people in China at the time there were only a handful of individuals with some degree of enlightenment.

I thought I noticed some posters who agreed with you. They just didn't spend a lot of time debating it. Best of luck.

It feels good to say that we know better than the ancients here in 2006 and that we dont need to abstain from sex to get enlightened. It also feels good to say that we are already enlightened so there is nothing to seek. That is a very seductive doctine, but in my opinion it is completely wrong. We need total conservation or there is no conservation. We also need to strive or there is no accomplishment.

Just one mans opinion...seriously, no one else agrees with me nairb.

[nairb]

Dragon's head, snakes tail.

nairb,

You are fortunate Scott has internet as his mountain temple, or else you'd have to climb many stone steps before he struck you with his zen stick!

[Scott R. Brown]

MIND does not need to exist for time to exist if that is what you are implying. Tao does, but are you implying MIND and Tao are the same? The laws of nature/physics do not suspend themselves when no one is looking. You are sounding like the school of thought that says if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around it is silent.

Hi Darin,

If mind exists, then mind is of Tao because nothing can exist separate from Tao. Since mind perceives and mind is a manifestation of Tao, Tao perceives. We are nothing more than Tao perceiving itself!

Time is nothing but an arbitrary measure of change. For time to exist there must be something to perceive it! If there is nothing to perceive phenomena how can anything be demonstrated to exist. What would do the measuring? Nothing would be observing nothing be nothing, therefore nothing could occur or exists! If there is no mind, there is nothing!

Consider a movie on film. The entire performance is contained on the reel. Each moment in time is contained on each frame. Each moment exists at once, in the same instant, when the reel is held in the hand, but each moment must be experienced one after the other when viewed. This is because that is how the mind perceives within our world system. When the film is displayed upon the screen it is projected upon a two dimensional media, but “appears” to be three dimensional. Action and events “appear” to occur, but they are not really occurring. They also appear to occur in a linear fashion, but they are in fact all occurring at once it is just that they are displayed one after another and that gives the illusion of time. The perspective projected upon the two dimensional screen provides the illusion of space.

When a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, it DOES NOT make a sound. Sound is a function of waves impinging on a receiving apparatus and then interpreted by a mind. Without the falling tree (the cause of the waves) the receptive instrument (the listening apparatus) and the interpretive system, (the mind) there is no sound! A falling tree makes waves through the air, but those waves are only sound when they are received and interpreted as sound by a mind.

Without mind to measure there is nothing to measure. Without mind to perceive nothing occurs.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hey Nexus!!!

A most excellent poem!!!

[Scott R. Brown]

Dragon's head, snakes tail.

Me thinks you have a bone to pick.

Perhaps you are another person we already know venting under another psuedonym???

[Scott R. Brown]

My english is not very good but i hope you can understand me ...

Enjoy,
Jorge

Hi Jorge,

Welcome to the discussion. Your english is pretty good so I wouldn't worry about it.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us all!

[Scott R. Brown]

I'm still not clear how one can say they are realized or enlightened without going thru some of the processes indicated by enlightened individuals. I guess that's why the Zen school have things like the robe and bowl to indicate transfer of the Dharma. I think one of the errors of people in Western countries is they read about Zen masters who were enlightened after a night of hard drinking and *****ing and they don't know about the years of meditation and effort that went before.

Hi nairb,

I would refer you to Hui-Neng, the 6th patriarch of Ch’an, who obtained realization after hearing the Diamond Sutra ONE time. For Hui-Neng there was no process, no method, no striving, no effort, and no meditation. Hui-Neng taught meditation as well as methods and processes are un-necessary. The meditation practices taught by some Zen sects are merely Useful and Useless expedients depending upon the needs and inclinations of each individual. Following Hui-Neng there was no transfer of bowl and robe to indicate authority!

But I know you have read all of this in Watts and Suzuki so I am sure it is unnecessary for me to repeat it!

As a fellow student of Zen I encourage you to continue seeking insights.

[Nexus]

Hui-Neng's story can be thought of like this:

the Diamond Sutra spoken was like a bell within Hui-Neng being struck and began to resonate at a frequency. He was then given the tool to strike the bell with and kept it at the same frequency all his life. The Diamond Sutra was the "tool" and it worked for him. I'll bet you many times he repeated this sutra to himself, even after his awakening.

Edit:
Here is a link to the Diamond Sutra: http://www.hm.tyg.jp/~acmuller/bud-c...ond_sutra.html

For those interested, it is 40 minutes long (when spoken) and is memorized by many Buddhists.

[dwid]

Hui Neng was the man, and very relevant to this topic...

Bodhi originally has no tree
The mirror also has no stand
Buddha nature is always clear and pure
Where is there room for dust?
-Huineng