No Sex

[DarinHamel]

JS: As far as I know Taoists suggest that one should also stop having sex, otherwise the Small and Large Heavenly Circles will never open. Is that true for Bagua Neigong practice as well?

MR.MA: Yes, this is very important condition. My teacher told me that at the very beginning - if you want to develop true skill, you must be like a monk, living in celibacy. There is a story about "Coal" Ma, who was selling coal in Beijing's Caishikou. When he started to study Baguazhang from Dong Haichuan, he took his quilt and moved out to live in the shop. He lived there for three years and did not return home even once during that time.

Your body requires one week to recover after one sexual intercourse. i.e. come back to the condition before the intercourse. One hundred days is required to recover Original Qi (Yuan Qi) completely (i.e. recover to the condition before one had any sex). About three years is required to open Small Heavenly Circle.

JS: What about married people? I'm afraid people who have families will have difficulty with developing any Internal Skill then...

MR.MA: There is not a big problem with practice in Middle Basin (Zhong Pan), you can still get Internal Skill. However once you decide to practice Lower Basin you have to stop any sexual activity.

JS: What if one decides to practice in Lower Basin without fulfilling that requirement?

MR.MA: You will only hurt yourself. Lower Basin is a very demanding practice for the body and it will not be able to endure it. During Lower Basin practice you have to eat well and have good rest. It is like having a bank account. If you draw 1 million dollars from it and then transfer 1 million back it is OK. If you transfer 1 million and one dollar, you will have little saving - surplus energy. However if you transfer only 990 thousand, you will be in dept - your body will not be able to recover from the effort. In this way although your muscles may get stronger, your internal strength, internal potential, will decrease. This phenomena can be easily recognized by hearing one's voice - weak voice, neither loud nor clear, sometimes accompanied by coughing is the symptom of low energy level. Lower Basin method is most suitable for young, unmarried people. Otherwise you have to make the decision to become like a monk for three years...

JS: We were talking about Small Heavenly Circle. What about the Large Heavenly Circle (Da Zhou Tian)?

MR.MA: Once the Small Circle is opened, the Large will open naturally. There is a saying "Small Achievement comes in three years, Big Achievement - in ten years" (Xiaocheng San Nian Dacheng Shi Nian). One has to live in celibacy for at least six years to achieve true skill. Once the skill comes out, you still have to limit the number of sexual intercourses. Two, three times a week will ruin your skill completely. Once every two, three months is not a big problem.

JS: What do you mean by ruining the skill?

MR.MA: Your legs and waist (lower back) will lose the flexibility and strength. There are many martial arts practitioners who had remarkable skill in youth but when older they could hardly walk. This was caused by excessive sex. One of my teachers, Guo Gumin, was never married. When I started Bagua practice in 1961, for six years I was practically living in celibacy as well. At 5:00PM I was coming back home from work, ate dinner, and immediately went to practice. I was coming back at 1:00AM, after 6-7 hours of practice. Everyday, without even one day of rest.

[DarinHamel]

From here.

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/machuanxu.html

[PlumDragon]

That was a very good article. Thanks for sharing!

[Scott R. Brown]

It never ceases to amaze me how individuals who consider themselves Taoists will follow archaic superstition which clearly goes against the principles of Tao. Sexual relations are a normal and NECESSARY function of life that is part of the inherent nature of humans. One CANNOT live in accord with Tao if they go against their own nature. Abstention from sex to preserve or promote Chi development is a superstitious view that has no truth in reality!

The article cited has been addressed in the past. The following are some comments I previously made regarding sexual activity:

Repeated research demonstrates that sexual activity prior to athletic activity IMPROVES performance.

Some may argue that this does not apply to internal Chi development. They argue that sexual activity inhibits Chi flow. This limited view is in conflict with the Principles of Tao. It is based upon a misunderstanding of Tao. In fact healthy sexual activity promotes healthy Chi development and preservation!

If our purpose is to bring ourselves into accord with Tao and if we accept that being in accord with Tao is to live a natural life in balance with all things and in accord with the principles of Tao, then we must accept that part of a normal, natural human life is sexual activity. Therefore, to not recognize and accept our normal sexual needs is to be out of accord with Tao and thus out of balance. One cannot properly harmonize their Chi if they are out of balance. The more balanced our life the more easily Chi is developed and stored. To fight or inhibit normal, balanced sexual activity is to create conflict within our nature and we become OUT of accord with Tao; when we are out of balance Chi CANNOT flow unimpeded.

One may ask, then how did people accomplish such feats through abstention? Well first, who is to say they wouldn’t have developed faster, more effectively and more comprehensively had they lived a life more in accord with Tao? Secondly, it isn’t necessary to abstain from sexual activity or engage in sexual activity. Neither is what develops Chi; it is mental concentration in accordance with the elimination of impediments to the free flow of Chi. When we deny our normal human needs we create blockages that impede the free flow of Chi. By fulfilling normal sexual needs we reduce any possible preoccupation that may occur and thus the impediments.

Lastly, Chinese culture is not the only culture to have perceived and utilize the functions of Chi. Many “primitive” or nature based religions have a similar concept of Chi. Not all of them share the view of sexual abstention. In my younger days I was an apprentice for some time to an American Indian Medicine man. He was very familiar with the “Universal Energy” and he taught that sexual activity was one method that would help to balance and channel this energy properly. This teaching is in agreement with a proper understanding of Taoist principles, not as they are taught by some, but as they actually are! A balanced life neither excessively pursues nor runs away from natural human needs and functions. They are kept in their proper balance according to the example illustrated by Yin-Yang.

Sexual activity is normal and healthy. It is excess or paucity that need be avoided. Sexual activity stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system which is what causes the sense of loss or relaxation associated with the presumed loss of Chi. It is not vitality that is lost as a consequence of sexual activity it is a state of relaxation that is gained. This state of relaxation is a healthful and necessary condition that stimulates specific biological functions. By changing ones perspective one will perceive that their glass is not half empty, but is half full. We have not lost vitality we have gained a beneficial and healthful period of relaxation. The parasympathetic system promotes energy conservation by slowing the heart rate and increases intestinal and glandular activity. The Ancients confused the sense of relaxation with a loss of vitality. To continue to do so today is foolishness!

We must remember that just because a principle or activity was adhered to in the past does not mean it is necessarily a true, healthy or beneficial practice. Ancient Taoists fed themselves mercury pills in an effort to promote longer life. Mercury is a deadly poison, but was promoted as a life sustaining substance. Is anyone willing to ingest mercury knowing that it will damage their brain and nervous system, just because the ancient Taoists said we should? If a person is willing to follow ancient Taoist sexual abstention practices why not follow the practice of mercury ingestion as well? How can we say the ancient Taoists are incorrect in one area, but correct in another without questioning everything they taught? Since they have been proven to be wrong in one area we must question everything they have taught when it does not come into accord with simple reason and the observable processes of Tao. The Ancient Taoists were not the best and final word on Tao or Chi cultivation. They were men exploring and learning about the processes of Tao just as we do today. Their teachings are meant to be guides to aide us in bringing ourselves into accord with Tao, but they are NOT the final word, Tao is!

[DarinHamel]

In my experience sexual essence is transformed into Chi and if you lose it that retards the growth of chi. The ancient Taoist texts say abstain, my Church says abstain for the full flowering of the mystical life and my personal experience says abstain

During meditation I have felt the perineum pumping like I am ejaculating but without emission. With that a rush of energy would flow up my spine. Upon entering my head it would roar like Niagra Falls inside my head and blazing white light would appear before my inner vision.

Now this was years ago in the early 90's when my practice was all about turning essence into chi. When I would lose my essence through a wet dream or self-abuse the light would not appear and the pain in my testicles would be extreme. When I had conserved the light would happen. The light means essence is becoming chi. I am sorry if others havent experienced this but I have. I have also found many others who have. The Ancient texts are clear on this.

Ancient alcemists saying: Nature unaided fails.

[Scott R. Brown]

In my experience sexual essence is transformed into Chi and if you lose it that retards the growth of chi. The ancient Taoist texts say abstain, my Church says abstain for the full flowering of the mystical life and my personal experience says abstain

During meditation I have felt the perineum pumping like I am ejaculating but without emission. With that a rush of energy would flow up my spine. Upon entering my head it would roar like Niagra Falls inside my head and blazing white light would appear before my inner vision.

Now this was years ago in the early 90's when my practice was all about turning essence into chi. When I would lose my essence through a wet dream or self-abuse the light would not appear and the pain in my testicles would be extreme. When I had conserved the light would happen. The light means essence is becoming chi. I am sorry if others havent experienced this but I have. I have also found many others who have. The Ancient texts are clear on this.

Hi DarinHamel,

Feel free to limit your experiences. That is your choice and the benefits and deficits are yours to enjoy. Your statements make it clear they have worked for you, however I can drive a nail with a wrench too, but it is less efficient than when using a hammer.

The ancient alchemical Taoists and your Church are wrong. This has been demonstrated using scientific facts and simple reasoning. Their views do not follow the simplest most basic principles of Tao. Which are, living a “balanced” life according to “ones nature” in accord with the principles of Tao.

Your Church also has problems with pedophilia! Why do you think that is? Perhaps because they force priests to deny their natural, normal, healthy human sexuality!! If you deny your nature you will reap the consequences of that denial. When a priest is forced to deny his nature he carries multiple burdens. The first is his struggle to suppress healthy normal biological and psychological needs. The second is the unnecessary guilt that is a consequence of his inability to suppress his normal needs. The third is consequences of the harm he does to others and himself when he molests the innocent. These burdens may be avoided by simply allowing priests to follow their normal human natures. The Hebrews understood this that is why rabbis are required to marry and beget children.

When it comes to mystical experiences, they occur whether one is celibate or not. Your experiences will follow your expectation. If you proceeded to pursue your mystical experiences while engaging in normal sexual relations with the purpose to demonstrate the ancients are incorrect, you would discover that they are incorrect. You would discover that sexual relations have nothing to do with mystical experience; they have nothing to do with Chi or its cultivation. Mystical experience/Realization is about developing/cultivating the ability to perceive reality beyond the illusion of the material dualistic system. This is a state of mind, not a state of body!

A healthy body is not even necessary! These experiences are available to anyone who takes the time and makes the effort regardless of the body’s physical condition. You are depending upon sources from a time period and cultural perspective that was uninformed and ignorant of many things. (Remember the mercury pills?) We don’t follow much of anything and don’t believe much of anything they believed and thought 2,000 years ago, but we will believe the ancients on this? As I stated before, if you trust their judgment so much go ahead and take your mercury pills! Let’s see what happens!

At some point you must learn to think for yourself. These rules you follow may appear to be beneficial for you, but they are not in accord with the principles of Tao, and they are not healthy. Since they do not follow the principles of Tao they are less beneficial than following principles that will bring you into accord with Tao. As I previously pointed out, I can drive a nail with a wrench, but it is less efficient than when using a hammer.

Ancient alcemists saying: Nature unaided fails.

This is incorrect! Nature requires NO assistance. Just as water will find its own level if left alone to follow its own nature, so will a human's nature find its own balance if left alone to follow its own nature. The individuals who wrote that statement may have called themselves Taoists or may have been called Taoists by others, but they were not following the principles of Tao and were therefore not in accord with Tao!

[IronFist]

The common one I've heard is no sex 24 hours before or after qigong. This means if you want to get busy on a Friday, you have to take Thursday, Friday, and Saturday off from your qigong practice.

Sounds like you have to plan your lovin' this way.

What happens if these rules are not followed?

What happens if you do your qigong on Wednesday and then Wednesday night your wife comes home early from her business trip and jumps your bones?

Or what happens if you get your freak on and then do qigong later that night?

Discuss.

[rett]

One thing about qigong, there's always another text or school or version that says something different.

[mjw]

One thing about qigong, there's always another text or school or version that says something different.

TRUTH and I wouldn't worry about it if you "release"

[Hendrik]

When one really has the kung fu, with a decent body, one knows one's body condition.

in general,

Having sex 2 hours after the Qigong practice and practice Qigong 8 hours after sex in general. one takes 2 hours after practice to slow down the process with proper closing the energy. one takes 8 hours after sex to rest and let the body back to normal.


But if one is doing sex every week, then might as well as not practice any Qigong because one will not accumulate anything at all, a waste.

[IronFist]

But if one is doing sex every week, then might as well as not practice any Qigong because one will not accumulate anything at all, a waste.

Every week?

I guess people having sex multiple times a week are out too, huh.

[Taixuquan99]

The common one I've heard is no sex 24 hours before or after qigong. This means if you want to get busy on a Friday, you have to take Thursday, Friday, and Saturday off from your qigong practice.

Sounds like you have to plan your lovin' this way.

What happens if these rules are not followed?

Instant death.

What happens if you do your qigong on Wednesday and then Wednesday night your wife comes home early from her business trip and jumps your bones?

Or what happens if you get your freak on and then do qigong later that night?

Depends. Because a lot of qigong is dependent on use of the PC muscles, and because, if you ejaculated, your PC has done the most exhausting activity it ever experiences, it will tend to be beating a dead horse; in fitness terms, working an area you already worked to exhaustion. Because it ties in to the kua, the whole region tends to already be a bit worked.

I think one of the problems discussions of these types face is that they avoid actual discussion of sex. Why is sex, by default, a problem? Frankly, it isn't, except for those groups that take a state that is part of a cycle, celibacy(the natural cycle being availability to celibacy to availability) and making it into something to make long term for immortality or wondrous wisdom or wondrous powers.

So terms get thrown around like it disturbs the shen, arbitrary statements without definition or background.

So, why would sex disturb the shen? It doesn't. How one approaches sex can.

For example, images in fantasy were often refered to as demons. The idea is, if the sensation does not suffice, then there is a problem with functioning going on. Adding a fantasy instead of approaching the problem and solving it leads to continuing the conduct that creates the problem. Same with how one makes love, if one is in another world, they are not responding to who they are with, missing cues that could be more fruitful than the ideas in their head. From a Taoist perspective, they are ignoring the Way.

The main use I can see for celibacy is at the beginning phase of qigong, before one has learned what they are working with. What this does is focus them on the practice, keep the PC muscles ready for more qigong, and give them a sort of reset, like a fast allows for diet, where they have a break from past habits that might not be conducive to either qigong or sex(which is, as one can see from the view of alarmists, intrinsically a qigong).

However, as soon as possible, this forced celibacy will end. If how one engages in sexual activity is a problem, avoiding solutions is not a practice. To engage in qigong and not work on the same concepts in approaches to sex is not a good practice. Since sex is the single most quantifiable way to measure skill in qigong(by way of improvements in endurance based around subtle PC usage, by way of being more aware of what is and so not being forced to resort to added stimulus that deadens sensitivity, etc), it should be of great importance.

When I first learned the main practices I use, I had a month span of celibacy, followed by six months of sexual practice regarding the qigong as central. The celibate state did allow me a break from my previous approaches to sex, and the practice enforced new habits.

The point of qigong isn't supposed to be distinct from one's life. To calm the shen in qigong and not be able to keep a reasonably calm shen in sex is missing a major point of the practice, imo, but some people do things to be seen as an expert at doing them, so c'est la vie.

Because avoidance of ejaculation requires a subtle refocus of the hard rise of the PC that tends to represent the point of no return, circling down subtly and using the force of the rise to cause the downward movement of the PC at the moment before the point of no return actually is upon one, to do a lot of PC work before can mean an exhausted PC that cannot do this well enough, and, as I said earlier, qigong afterwords is beating a dead horse. Further, hard rises in the PC that are not efficiently moved to the downphase in a timely manner in either qigong or sex can lead to exhausting the PC and giving the sensation of "blue balls," which is never good.

The problem with celibacy is that it also reduces sexual function, which is not good energy work. The idea is to be always hungry but never starving. Avoiding ejaculation is one way this state is achieved, but if one isn't taking part in any sexual activity after they already know the pathways involved, they are not using an important pathway the way it is supposed to be used, and it's functioning will be weak compared to if they were more consistently practiced in its use.

Have a lot of sex, just don't finish, and keep the PC contractions moderate. If you make sex qigong, its hard for it to interfere with your qigong practice.

I'm sure there are further practices I'm not familiar with, this is just an answer from my practice.

[rett]

Have a lot of sex, just don't finish, and keep the PC contractions moderate.

Isn't there a big risk of getting problems in your prostrate gland with that?

[Taixuquan99]

Isn't there a big risk of getting problems in your prostrate gland with that?

It relates to how you manage PC muscle contractions. I think one of the problems that could lead to that is how one interprets what some call the big draw. If you're talking about the not ejaculating part.

Additionally, that's not "never ejaculate". For young people, it's still gonna be every three or four days.

There's a lot of detail work that's difficult to cover in text. The extreme upswing of the PC is where a lot of people get in trouble, it produces a lot of heat if one stays in it to "feel good", usually holding their breath at the same time.

I should specify that I'm not saying to force yourself not to ejaculate, nothing should be forced, but that there is a moment before the point of no return where the upswing can, in a smooth and relaxed manner, be turned to a downswing, to avoid through continuous circulation that disperses tension, not fight tension with tension.

Or are you talking about something else?

Anecdotal, I know, but I've never had problems from the practice.

[rett]

Or are you talking about something else?

That's what I was asking about, thanks.

It's interesting but I'm not going to get into that kind of practice. It seems a bit too convoluted to me. I'm in a relationship so I'm just going to live as I live according to the choices I've made. I don't believe we evolved "wrong" and need fixing.