No Sex

[DarinHamel]

Hi Darin,

No I cannot discorporeate at will etc. neither am in concerned about discorporeating at will. It is an ability and not directly related to realization. If I could do it I would not be too impressed with myself either. It is a child’s game when compared to realization. It is not an important ability to acquire. When one focuses on developing abilities or assigns the acquisition of abilities as a measure of advancement they are focusing on the leaves of the tree and not the root. The only true measure is do we realize or not. Anything else is merely a toy to play with or a distraction to lead us into erroneous views and attitudes that inhibit the end result.

OK now were getting somewhere in our respective definitions of enlightenment. Do you believe a "realized" being can discorperate at will? Not whether they would or not but can they?

(This is like pulling teeth.)

[fa_jing]

"Give me immortality or give me death!"

Had a chuckle at that one, since if you don't get immortality you get death anyway, goes without saying....anyway carry on and good luck with your endeavours.

[Scott R. Brown]

(This is like pulling teeth.)

LOL!! Well, it is a matter of being specific. This is the first time you have been this specific about what you mean.

Do you believe a "realized" being can discorperate at will? Not whether they would or not but can they?

I don't know and I don't care. It is of no consequence to me because if it does occur it is a side effect and not the goal.

I do not consider the ability to discorporeate a measure of development. For at least two reasons:

1) Apparently there are those who can perform the same effect without significant maturity. Therefore, it cannot be an accurate measure of ones development.

2) It only has meaning on the physical plane! It is apparently common practice on the other side, as consistently cited by those who have performed research into life after death. This makes it nothing more than a skill. I understand you may say, ”Well, we don’t have a physical body on the other side.” But what is the value of discorporeating? It is to spontaneous disappear here and spontaneously re-appear, over there! This is apparently easily accomplished on the other side according to the research. To me this makes the ability, on the physical plane, nothing more than a toy and possibly a distraction if one becomes preoccupied with getting the toy and not winning the game!

Here is a metaphorical illustration of my point:

An Athlete concerns himself with winning the competition. Every part of his training is designed to assist him in his goal, which is to WIN!! He is only concerned with gaining abilities that will assist him in attaining his purpose. If it does not assist him he may perform the inconsequential activity as a form of recreation, but he will recognize it as un-necessary to attaining his goal. A powerlifter will not concern himself with having a superior VO2 max. This has a limited bearing on achieving his goal. In fact, too high of a VO2 max will inhibit the powerlifter from attaining his goal. That particular ability then becomes a detriment to his goal when it exceeds a certain level of development. A chess expert will have little interest in gaining superior strength for the purposes of his chess game because it has no bearing on his ability to win the game. A side effect of a water polo player’s training is superior aerobic ability, but the water polo player is not concerned with what his VO2 max measures he is concerned with winning the game. Elevated VO2 max is the side effect, winning is the goal! The lesson then is: Focus on winning the game and not the inconsequential side effects of the training.

[dwid]

2) It only has meaning on the physical plane! It is apparently common practice on the other side, as consistently cited by those who have performed research into life after death. This makes it nothing more than a skill. I understand you may say, ”Well, we don’t have a physical body on the other side.” But what is the value of discorporeating? It is to spontaneous disappear here and spontaneously re-appear, over there! This is apparently easily accomplished on the other side according to the research. To me this makes the ability, on the physical plane, nothing more than a toy and possibly a distraction if one becomes preoccupied with getting the toy and not winning the game!

Hi Scott,
I've noticed now that you've mentioned this "research" on a number of occasions. Being a onetime professional researcher in the social sciences and generally a critical consumer of research, I'm curious if you could reference legitimate scientific research in this regard. No offense intended, I've just never encountered anything in this area that had any academic rigor. A lot of anecdotal stuff, and stuff by neuroscience types who say they can recreate any of the supposed NDE type experiences by stimulating parts of the brain, but no serious studies supporting life after death, etc...

[DarinHamel]

Hi Scott,
I've noticed now that you've mentioned this "research" on a number of occasions. Being a onetime professional researcher in the social sciences and generally a critical consumer of research, I'm curious if you could reference legitimate scientific research in this regard. No offense intended, I've just never encountered anything in this area that had any academic rigor. A lot of anecdotal stuff, and stuff by neuroscience types who say they can recreate any of the supposed NDE type experiences by stimulating parts of the brain, but no serious studies supporting life after death, etc...

Speaking of researchers I too am one. I am a drug researcher for the Govt. Just saying...

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi dwid,

The legitimacy of research is pretty much in the eye of the beholder and I am well aware scientific organizations attempt to define what they consider legitimate research and acceptable evidence. I do not automatically accept the limitations on evidence that these organizations might seek to use as a definitions. Nearly everyone has had experiences that we consider REAL that some researchers might consider invalid evidence, yet we would not accept their negation of an experience we KNOW we had. I would not allow a researcher to define for me the taste of an orange, because I have tasted it for myself and would consider their disregard of my valid experience as foolishness.

Having said that, because of the nature of the topic there is some controversy as to the validity of the evidence. It is not a hard science, it is a social science and therefore the evidence is acquired through observational studies. Researchers gather information from various sources, collate and compare reports and then draw conclusions based upon the consistency of the reports over hundreds or thousands of incidences. In this field of study there can be no absolute evidence in the sense of consistently repeatable measurement with instrumentation, although there are some conducting studies on paranormal phenomena utilizing instruments of measurement. The evidence is based upon relatively similar reports repeated over time amongst individuals of different ages, educational levels, cultures and religions.

The researcher I have come across with the most impressive credentials regarding this field of study is Brian Weiss. The following is a short biography from his website:

A graduate of Columbia University and Yale Medical School, Brian L. Weiss M.D. is Chairman Emeritus of Psychiatry at the Mount Sinai Medical Center in Miami.

As a traditional psychotherapist, Dr. Brian Weiss was astonished and skeptical when one of his patients began recalling past-life traumas that seemed to hold the key to her recurring nightmares and anxiety attacks. His skepticism was eroded, however, when she began to channel messages from "the space between lives," which contained remarkable revelations about Dr. Weiss's family and his dead son. Using past-life therapy, he was able to cure the patient and embark on a new, more meaningful phase of his own career.

Brian Weiss, one of the first doctors to explore the past lives of his patients as a means of therapy, reveals how past and present lives can affect our future lives, and how our future lives can transform us in the here and now.

There are others, but Dr. Weiss is the one with the most traditional scientific background I have come across so far. He also discusses in one of his books his skepticism and how he stumbled upon the phenomena and how his research changed his view of life, death and reality.

Before anyone passes judgment on Dr. Weiss I recommend they read his works. He was very skeptical from the beginning having been trained in traditional scientific thought and practicing as a traditional psychotherapist.



The researcher who investigated reincarnation evidence I do not remember off hand. He was referenced in an interview I listened too a year or more ago. The researcher was identified as an Ivy League professor who interviewed children with remarkable memories of past lives all around the world. He did follow up research to verify their reports. Some of the things they recalled were events that occurred with the past life family members that few would know or recall had they not been present at the time of the original event. The research then tracked down the past life family members that were still alive and verified the information. If you are truly interested and this is not just a passing fancy I will make an effort to see if I can locate the source or the researcher and then get back to you.

[Scott R. Brown]

I don't know if this is the guy, but it would be a good start:

Dr. Ian Stevenson

http://www.childpastlives.org/stevenson.htm