No Sex

[neilhytholt]

Greetings..

Scott: Excellent discourse.. Now, i have a suggestion.. Copyright this stuff, compile your posts into a book and retire.. you have shared enough wisdom in this forum to create quite a handy piece of usable literature..

Scott's descriptions are consistent with basic Tao principles.. much of the reference to abstinence is from people trying to contrive an agenda for immortallity.. and, as Scott says, we are already immortal.. awareness is the variable..

Be well..

I am not discussing religion or politics anymore. But right now I am literally biting my tongue.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Good control, Neil.. good discipline.. as Dirty Harry said, "i like a man that knows his limitations"..

Be well..

[neilhytholt]

Greetings..

Good control, Neil.. good discipline.. as Dirty Harry said, "i like a man that knows his limitations"..

Be well..

I think you need to take that 'be well' out of your tagline, because from your comments it's obvious you don't mean it.

[DarinHamel]

I have always looked at the people who say sex doesnt matter in a spiritual practice like those black belts with big bellies who say that being fat doesnt matter, or the yogaic pranayama instructor that smokes 2 packs a day. Pointless to debate.

The debate that can be debated is not the real debate?

[DarinHamel]

Ok, that last one was harsh. I'll leave it because its really what I think sometimes.

But I do wonder also if you are right Scott. What if I have entered the darkside? Perhaps those who do achieve physical immortality are going against the natural order of things and are therefore wrong.

All things in the natural world live and die? So is going the way of Enoch or Elijah evil?

Is there a "golden mean" in these things?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi TaiChiBob.

Thank you for the encouragement. I am doing just that. The tentative title is “The Tao of Tao”. I am not into self-promotion so if and when it gets published I will PM you rather than post it on the BB.

Hi neilhytholt,

I think you need to take that 'be well' out of your tagline, because from your comments it's obvious you don't mean it.

You are assuming TaiChiBob is being snide and not well meaning! Perhaps your own snide attitude colors your perceptions. Perhaps you are projecting your own intentions on to someone else.

On the other hand, you have a decidedly poor/rude attitude! It oozes from most of your posts! One cannot expect others to be repeatedly cordial when your sour attitude asks for a firm response. I wish my children well, but that does not mean I will tolerate rude or inappropriate behavior from them. Indeed I scold them in order to guide them to more appropriate behavior. You are asking others to accept your attitude, but appear unwilling to accept the response your attitude encourages. Your initial post today was meant to be derogatory; you received a rather clever and humorous response in return. It appears that TaiChiBob’s general rule is to apply the principles of Tai Chi in his daily life. This is what motivates him to respond in such a pleasant and good-natured manner. Some of us however, prefer the more direct approach. For example I would say: if you don’t want others to be derogatory to you, then do not behave derogatory yourself. I you don’t like being told that then go play somewhere else because you will continue to hear these types of responses when you behave this way!

I might add that I have tempered the tone of my direct manner because of the example set by TaiChiBob. A year ago I would have been much more terse!!


Hi Darin,

It might be beneficial for the discussion to explain your definition of immortality. If someone is confused about your meaning it seems incumbent that you make the effort to clear up the misunderstanding.

You previously stated your intention is to become immortal/ascend. Your means to attain this is through a formalized ritual which requires celibacy. I am stating immortality/ascension does not require a formalize ritual or celibacy to be accomplished, that is all. The effects you experience do not seem to have provided you with any greater insight than anyone else who does not practice the rituals you adhere too. That is because effects, powers, abilities, etc. do not bestow insight, they are possible side effects of ascension not signs that it has occurred.

It is not my intention to dissuade you from the choices you are making. I have made no claims celibacy is not a means to an end. I have merely stated celibacy is not necessary! To you it is a useful expedient. To me it is a waste of time and ignores our humanness.

Regardless, if one is not gaining maturity, understanding and insight from their practice what they have gained is of little value.

I would not consider your path leaning to the darkside. It is clear your intention is good and your attitude hopeful. I do not percieve you behaving in manners that indicate any evil intention. You are open to discussing your path with others who disagree with you. This is a sign of willingness to grow. You are reasonable in your discussion even when you encounter criticism. This is not easy for many to endure with grace. Criticism can be difficult because many have an ego investment/attachment to the path they adhere too. When this occurs the attachment to their chosen path forms a part of their self-definition, their core identity. Then when their path is criticized they may perceive it as a criticism of themselves. Sort of like, “To criticize my path is to criticize me!” This makes growing beyond our attachments difficult because to change involves a psychological death to our old ways of perceiving ourselves. Growth involves change and change can be like a little death. We die to our old way of looking at things, only to be reborn to a new realization. This mini-death is a death to the ego attachment we had to our old way of looking at things.

This internal metaphorical death is symbolically illustrated in many mythological tales. It represents a death to the old self, the old ego attachments, and a rebirth to a new self, to new realizations. These new realizations bring greater freedom, not less. St. Paul said, all things are legal for me, but not all things are expedient, not all things are edifying. He understood he could basically do whatever he wanted. He was not ruled by laws and restrictions. This is because he understood that ascension is not based upon actions, but is a state of being, a state of mind. He chose the actions he would perform according to his intentions or end purpose. He chose not to engage in many behaviors because he recognized that as a leader of spiritual children to behave in manners that would be confusing to the flock would lead to misunderstanding and impede the growth of those he sought to guide. So while his actions were a choice based upon specific intentions he also recognized he could inherently do whatever he wanted without jeopardizing his salvation.

Change/growth can be very scary. It leads us to unknown territory, but it is this unknown territory that provides us with the rewards/benefits we seek.

To me it is the goal that is important. The means we use to get there are merely useful expedients! They are useful as long as we perceive progress, but we should try to avoid clinging to our method. Clinging binds us to ignorance and encourages erroneous views. At some point our progress will be retarded if we continue to cling to methods that no longer serve our purpose. That is not to say we shouldn’t give our method of choice our full dedication, but we must not forget that no matter which method we follow it is only ONE means to an end. We must be willing to discard whatever method we adhere to for the benefit of the ultimate goal. In other words we should not make the method we use more important than the goal we seek.

As always, I fully enjoy our discussions and I am happy to continue or not as you please!

[neilhytholt]

Mr. Scott,

Yes, I do not pretend to be nice. I do not hide mean-ness behind a facade of nice-ness.

Does that make me mean? What is sickening is people who pretend to be nice and are really mean. In the West we call them wolves in sheep's clothing. Somebody told me that in China they call them Smiling Tigers.

Edit.

I do not talk about religion or politics anymore.

But what else is sicking is people who hide their ignorance behind words, and those who teach topics they do not really know.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Neil,

Mr. Scott,

Yes, I do not pretend to be nice. I do not hide mean-ness behind a facade of nice-ness.

Does that make me mean? What is sickening is people who pretend to be nice and are really mean. In the West we call them wolves in sheep's clothing. Somebody told me that in China they call them Smiling Tigers.

There is a difference between pretending to be nice and using humor or communicating ones opinion with decorum and common courtesy!

What you perceive to be hypocrisy is more likely a projection of your own idiosyncrasies/issues (i.e. suspicions of the REAL intent of others) and not in fact false kindness!

I do not talk about religion or politics anymore.

But what else is sicking is people who hide their ignorance behind words, and those who teach topics they do not really know.

You may not choose to discuss politic or religion, but you seem to feel free to criticize the comments of others without giving rational argument for you opinion. This makes your opinion worthless for the purposes of discussion. It leads one to conclude you may not have valid reasons for you views. Any one can criticize the ideas and comments of others and make specious claims. This takes no intellect or knowledge of the topic discussed. If your criticism provides no evidence it has no value in the discussion and there is no reason to offer it other than to stroke your own ego.

While I support your right to stroke your own ego, if you interpose your meaningless and valueless comments into a REAL discussion, and receive criticism in return, than you have received the attention and recognition you are striving to gain albeit negative attention! Children strive to get attention, if they cannot get it by behaving with courtesy, then they will strive to get it by behaving poorly. You repeatedly behave poorly!

Be Well!!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

neilhytholt: Regardless of our differing perspectives, regardless of our empassioned or emotional banter.. i do sincerely wish you well.. i can only think of 2 times i haven't used that "tag" and it was intentional.. not that i didn't wish the poster well, but that they didn't really deserve it... I hold no ill feelings toward you at all.. it is through dialogue like ours that i gain insights into myself, into the depths of my own belief system.. i welcome challenges to my perspectives, and.. as many here will confirm, i am also willing to change my perspectives based on superior evidence..

So, in all sincerity... Be well.. enjoy the journey, because, in the words of Max Ehrmann, "for all its sham and drudgery, the world is still a beautiful place"..

Sincerely,
Bob Waers

[DarinHamel]

"The Tao of Tao"? If it is half as good as your posts I would buy it for myself and get a copy for my friends too. Your not just full of great Taoist insight but your writing style is very beautiful (and ego-non-threatening thank God).

Last year I came to the conclusion that I needed to "let go" of my need to seek a formula for immortality/ascension and to just "be" and it would happen naturally if my intention was to completely follow the Tao. Sounds like what your saying doesn't it?

Now I think I am just trying to figure out how to let go of "me". I have purged my possessions several times in my life so I could start over. I even went homeless once trying to follow the example of the Taoists masters. Perhaps I am at that point again?

What I need to purge this time is not my possessions, friendships or anything tangible. I need to purge something deeper and it seems it can't be contrived or forced. It needs to happen naturally and I don't trust "natually".

So whats your take on this? Wu Wei? I feel the intense need to "do" something but my personal insight tells me to stop "doing" and to just "be". I may have just worn out my """ key.

My idea of immortality btw is physical not-dying until your body transforms into pure energy and we ascend to the higher non-physical realms.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Scott: Very humble thanks <bows>

Darin:

My idea of immortality btw is physical not-dying until your body transforms into pure energy and we ascend to the higher non-physical realms.

Try reading "Chronicles of Tao, by Deng Ming-Dao.. it contains a beautiful description of discarding the flesh at the appropriate time.. a conscious transition with spirit intact.. Consistent with my mentor's teachings, too..

One of my most favorite quotes.. "we are traveling to where we have always been, from ignorance to enlightenment.. awareness is the vehicle".. i still marvel at the wisdom of those words... there's nothing to "do", except see clearly..

Be well...

[Red Wind Fist]

as far as I know, in my studies of the Tao, I was lead to believe that sex would improve your performance. Hence the positions that help boost chi during sex, which mimick the indian kama sutra. I always feel more calm and incontrol when I spar or fight after I've had sex. I feel my palms and spine more open to chi afterwards too. But on a personal level, if it came down to martial arts and sex...SEX. Call me weak or what ever you want, but while your sitting in meditation all ****ed off, I'm giving my lady the business and feeling great. Thats ultimately what its all about I suppose.
I like to balance out sex with mediation and breating positions afterwards. For me I feel a greater flow of chi. but hey, we all have our methods.

[Red Wind Fist]

oh wow, I just read my own post. It censored the word ****ed off. hey, can I say **** too?

[DarinHamel]

oh wow, I just read my own post. It censored the word ****ed off. hey, can I say **** too?

Thanks for not cussing. After eight years in the Army I used to cuss alot and it has taken me years to break that habit. Even seeing it in writing will put it back in my head and I will accidentally cuss. Its like smoking, you can quit but its is always inside you wanting to start again.

[18elders]

I know many people who did the iron palm training and had sex. They can break as well as the ones who say they didn't have sex.
Sex is a natural instinct, i don't think it is good to suppress a natural thing.
In nature, the strong are the ones having the sex.