Great Googley Moogley!
Why does discorperating imply a relativity to time? Time may be relavitive, but it is not an illusion. Motion (ascension?) is relative too, but that is not an illusion either. All relativity implies is a larger picture, not that there is no picture.Originally Posted by Nexus
Give me immortality or give me death!
Peach Tree
Taichibob,
I experienced nocturnal emissions during my training until i'd developed sufficient pc muscle strength and a burnining internal desire to retain my seminal fluids. I would then wake in the middle of the night on the brink of ejaculation and immediately my instincts would be to tighten the muscle and perform lesser heavenly circulation meditation which seemed to work well for me.
Great Googley Moogley!
Yep, thats the way to do it. Wet dreams are rough at first but like anything else you can overcome it if you really want to.
Give me immortality or give me death!
Registered User
Greetings..
At a certain point the retention becomes natural and you don't even fully wake.. but, my teacher cautions not to be too "controlling", that occasionally the release is beneficial.. sort of maintaining the machinery.. she also taught to not conceptualize "overcoming" or dominating our nature, rather to see it as cultivating a higher natural intention.. a subtle but important distinction that sets the intention as harmonious rather than conflicting..Yep, thats the way to do it. Wet dreams are rough at first but like anything else you can overcome it if you really want to.
Be well..
TaiChiBob.. "the teacher that is not also a student is neither"
Great Googley Moogley!
Its the "mystery" of the bleeding spear in the Holy Grail quest. I found it enlighening when I first started to retain I had monthly emissions like a woman does that cycled on the moon phases. Then I learned the bindu lock and gradually it sort of stopped. But the cycle that replaced it was the energy pulsing up the spine.
Give me immortality or give me death!
Registered User
You guys are much more studied than I am on these matters but I just have a few questions-
For the non-abstinence people - if you should have sex naturally then why do Buddhist and Christian monks - including Zen masters - go thru a period of celibacy and meditation before achieving any level of enlightenment? To me these two groups seem to have the highest hit rate of achieving some level of enlightenment.
If you say you must have sex because strong animals are natural and have sex - how many animals have achieved enlightenment? That argument just seems like a way to justify doing whatever you want and you want sex obviously.
For the Taoist experts - I thought the fundamental first tenent of Taoism is conversion of the jing to chi by first conserving the jing (semen). Isn't this a very big argument for abstinence in Taoism.
These questions are based on the assumptions that Shakyamuni Buddha, his Arhats are at the top of the enlightenment pyramid going down to and including the Chinese Ch'an (Zen) patriarchs. I'm not sure where the middle eastern religions fall on the scale, except that some of the Christian monks and Sufis certainly also attained some level of enlightenment. BTW, some Sufis practice abstinence and some do not. The orthodox Sufis follow the example of Mohammed, which includes marriage. I'm not sure what percentage of those married Sufis achieve a level of enlightenment. Zen in Japan also allows for practitioners from the married salary man community. I understand they are not expected to achieve much tho. They are probably just for cash flow.Also, I assume the Taoist immortals have some level of enlightenment, somewhere below the Zen patriarchs if you had to rank them.
BTW - Congratulations on the achievements of the people on this thread. It sounds like your doing well along the path.
Registered User
Hi nairb,
We must be careful to not confuse co-incidence of phenomena with a cause/effect relationship. Just because many who are “presumed” to have some spiritual advanced condition “appear” to be celibate or are celibate, does not mean that the celibacy contributed to their advanced spiritual condition, even if they claim it is so. Just because I, or my followers, or the adherents to the path I follow claim an advanced spiritual condition does not mean it has actually occurred either. The Dali Lama and the Pope are two who I would point out are considered spiritually advanced, but are not necessarily so! On whose authority do they have this condition bestowed upon them? They are given that position as a condition of their position within THEIR group and then the authority of that group is accepted by an unwitting populace. It is claimed by some that Steven Segal was recognized by the Dali Lama to have been a reincarnated Lama, but he doesn’t seem to have much maturity since he was a well known wife beater in Santa Barbara County where I know a deputy who frequently answered the calls of his wife. Segal is another one I would consider someone who plays the part, but appears to lack inner maturity.
Just because someone shaves their head, dresses in cool robes, professes celibacy, speaks cryptically, acts the part, and is treated as if they are advanced does not automatically confer an advanced condition upon them. Outward manifestations are not an accurate measure of development. Change occurs within and may not be noticeable outwardly. Commonly accepted outward manifestations of spiritual development may be easily pretended. It is not difficult to behave according to the expectations of others.
Outward manifestations are not a true reflection of an individual’s inner condition. The Highest Truths are not subject to democratic vote, popular opinion or outward affectations. They either ARE or they AREN”T manifested within an individual and most people do not have the insight to tell who has it and who doesn’t!! They measure based upon artificial standards and assume conditions according to whether those standards are noticeable or not. I can make a nice show of benevolence, wisdom and kindness, but that doesn’t make me that way inwardly! The outward actions may be identical, but the inward motivation is different.
You may note that the earliest ones teach about Tao as well as Buddha taught the middle path as the most productive method for spiritual growth. They taught “nothing to excess”, NOT the elimination of basic human activities and needs. If one exercises habits that go too far to either extreme whether hedonistic behavior or ascetic behavior it is considered unhealthy and unnatural by the original teachers. (You may also note this point of view was taught by the Greeks and was referred to as the “Golden Mean”.) It is those who followed afterwards that added to the basic teachings and changed them to extreme methods.
It is in the nature of men to exaggerate the basic principles, change them and misapply them. This misapplication is created by men of lesser understanding and occurs within all religious systems. Less knowledgeable men create structures or systems of training that were originally intended to be tools for growth, but they eventually become hindrances because they slowly move away from the original teachings by adding unnecessary requirements. Within these less effective systems the devotees eventually begin to focus on the maintaining of the ritual of the system and the maintaining of personal status within the system and NOT the facilitating of growth. They forget the system is nothing more than a finger pointing to the moon.
When the finger becomes more important than the moon, the system has lost its effectiveness! It becomes a trap that binds the devotees to worldly practices and rituals. When the growth process becomes unnecessarily structured and ritualized the devotee is forced to conform to external and arbitrary rituals rather than follow his own inner tendencies which will guide his growth. Those who perceive the arbitrary structures as unproductive and refuse to adhere to the structure are perceived as a danger to the system and are then ostracized.
As an aside, there are individuals who were followers of Tao that were married and had children and some Zen practitioners had love affairs as well. Just because they are not well known does not mean they did not or do not exist! Also ****sexuality is a tendency amongst the supposedly celibate, it is merely kept underground.
Registered User
Hi Scott,
Thanks for the quick response. You may notice I did not mention the Pope or the Dalai Lama in my post. In fact, I specifically delineated an assumed "enlightenment heirarchy" in the last paragraphs. No offense, but it seems you are skirting the questions. Just for fun, I'll ask another few related to your last post -
- If the "middle way" means having a middle amount of sex then why aren't most people enlightened- Why isn't every business man/woman in Japan or the USA enlightened? They seem to practice the middle way by definition. At least the ones in Japan would probably like to be enlightened. As I mentioned in my earlier post their are a fair number of lay or householder zen practitioners in Japan, but they aren't considered to have a high success rate for enlightenment. Why?
- Is meditation considered part of the "middle way" by your definition? It certainly doesn't seem natural in the Taoist sense you indicate. Does meditation help towards enlightment?
- If meditation and/or celibacy are not the middle way, what discipline do you prescribe for someone to attain enlightenment - at what success rate?
Peace.
Registered User
Why does discorperating imply a relativity to time? Time may be relavitive, but it is not an illusion. Motion (ascension?) is relative too, but that is not an illusion either. All relativity implies is a larger picture, not that there is no picture.
Hi Darin,
This is very difficult to explain but I will try;
Let us start with the concept of ONE. With ONE there is no time or space. This is because in order to have time we must have movement or change. In order to have space there must be something to occupy the space, but in order to notice there is something within the space there must be more than one something to perceive. For there to be something to perceive we must have something to contrast with the other something or we won't perceive anything at all! If we only have ONE, we cannot have change which indicates time or a differentiation of things which indicates space. Therefore, with only ONE there is no time or space. In order for time and space to occur ONE must become at least TWO and these two must take turns being apparent. The TWO identifies space, the changing measures time. It is merely the manifestation of Yin and Yang so we will use these terms.
So to review, we start with Tao (ONE), which divides into Yin and Yang (TWO). This division is apparent (pretend) only. Tao is not inherently dual; it is conventionally or arbitrarily divided for a specific reason. That is, is Tao is pretending to be TWO to serve a particular purpose.
Now that we have TWO, Yin and Yang, they must alternate in some manner in order to create time. One must change into the other, but since they are both really ONE, they will actually only “appear” to alternate. It is MIND (That Which Perceives) that pretends Yin and Yang alternate. Since they are inherently Tao, they are not truly changing at all; MIND pretends they are changing. For Yin to be dominant or appear to be separate from Yang, Yang must be non-apparent. MIND must pretend not to notice Yang when Yin is apparent (dominant) and pretend not to notice Yin when Yang is dominant. While Yang is apparent MIND pretends not to remember it is really Tao; when Yin is apparent MIND pretends not to remember it is really Tao.
So MIND (Tao) fragments its perception thus creating time and space in order to serve a specific purpose and we call this purpose life or existence or being! Since it is all pretend it is merely an illusion. Nothing is really happening, it is Tao at play! Since there is nothing really happening and it is all pretend we can choose to play the game and agree to pretend to progress and grow or we can choose to see beyond the game to the essence of it all wherein there is nothing to do but BE!
Time and space are relative yes, they are relative to the perspective with which we choose to perceive, but they are not inherently real. They are pretend in order for Tao to play!
Registered User
Greetings..
It could be.. but, equally, control of the functions so as to express one's sexual nature without loss of jing is equally viable.. one can have a complete sexual experience while recycling semen, no external loss.. and, no diminishing of the sensations, the best of both perspectives..For the Taoist experts - I thought the fundamental first tenent of Taoism is conversion of the jing to chi by first conserving the jing (semen). Isn't this a very big argument for abstinence in Taoism.
I suggest that the Tao provides a unique physical experience for our physical existence.. in doing so, it seems to be contrary to Tao to reject some of the most intense and natural expressions of the physical existence in an attempt to gain insight into Tao.. in other words, the insights are right here, right now, why dull the very experiences that Tao provides.. Human nature seems to believe that we must pay a price for everything, that life is a negotiation.. i.e.: i can't get the reward without paying the price of difficult disciplines, abstinence, etc... we already have the rewards, all we lack is clarity and awareness.. which is available as a simple choice, we are what we choose to be.. if you believe that years of hard work is needed to gain the rewards, the Tao makes it so.. if you accept that you already "have it" the Tao will make it so to the degree you actually believe it.. It is noteworthy to note that Taiji, as well as all of reality begins at the junction of consciousness and the mind.. all things flow from that point from our perspective..
Be well..
TaiChiBob.. "the teacher that is not also a student is neither"
Registered User
Greetings..
Focusing on such a limited aspect as sex to be an indicator of enlightenment is a fatally narrow perspective.. sex, or the lack thereof, is a small portion of the holistic condition of "enlightenment", if such a condition/concept is anything other than a contrivance of desired outcomes... It would be interesting to see how differently people perceive the concept of "Enlightenment".. what is the standard for determining who is or isn't "enlightened"?- If the "middle way" means having a middle amount of sex then why aren't most people enlightened- Why isn't every business man/woman in Japan or the USA enlightened?
Be well...
TaiChiBob.. "the teacher that is not also a student is neither"
Ayatollah of Rock'n'rolla
Agreed, and also, what you mentioned before about differentiating outward appearance from what's actually going on. It was well known through much of the history of zen in Japan that monks were drinking and whoring. So well known in fact, that there are passages in which you can read leaders complaining that their students spend more time at the brothel than in the zendo. Read some of the poetry of some of the greatest zen poets of Japan and they are loaded with references to drinking and sex. People living a monastic existence are removing themselves from reality in many respects. They are purposefully limiting the stimuli available in the environment, so that they can limit themselves to a purely "spiritual" life. In many Buddhist sects, this is viewed as ideally a temporary condition, as ultimately the true test is in applying the lessons learned in this environment to the much messier world out there.
Nairb: Not to beat a dead horse, as I bring this up all the time, but there are no enlightened people in my opinion, only enlightened actions. The very concept of impermanence precludes enlightenment from being a state. So, when you look at a particular type of person as being enlightened and then attribute that to their practicing a lifestyle that is a lot more absolute in theory than in reality, you make two errors. Lots of people don robes and chant and abstain from sex and end up with no more insight than a guy that goes to work at a gas station for 20 years. Some supposedly enlightened persons have done some pretty unenlightened things as well. Look at some of the writings associated with high level Buddhists in Japan before and during WWII. They managed to bend zen into fitting the mold of the militaristic state.
The cinnabun palm is deadly, especially when combined with the tomato kick. - TenTigers
Registered User
Hi nairb,
Please do not confuse not getting the answer you want with skirting the issue. I answered as I intended. If my answer did not give you the answer you were looking for perhaps I interpreted your questions differently than you had intended.
I am happy to respond again.
It is immaterial whether you mentioned the Dali Lama or the Pope or not. They were MY examples not yours and I used them because they are well-known public figures. My comments should not be taken to imply they do not have superior spiritual development either. There is no way for me to know. They were just an example of individuals many are familiar with that the circumstances to which I referred to may apply.
Sex has nothing to do with the Middle Way! The Middle Way is an attitude that individuals live their lives by that is reflected in their actions. Actions alone mean nothing! Change and development occur internally. Our outward actions are merely a reflection of that inner attitude. The Middle Way is recommended in order to avoid pitfalls. That is to make the path easier to tread. Extremes tend to bring with them consequences that create disorder in our lives, either outwardly, emotionally, or physically. Too much disorder makes treading the path we have chosen more difficult and distracting.
Sex is an activity; activities have nothing to do with enlightenment. If they did then you are correct, everyone or most everyone would be enlightened. Enlightenment is an internal state of being, not an outward affectation or behavior. What actions you perform have little to do with your state of being, mental attitude and perspective does!
When one speaks of meditation they must first specify which form of meditation they are speaking of and how it is intended to be used and for what gain. Meditation encompasses a number of mental exercises, each may be used and abused as any other method or tool may be used or abused. At any rate meditation is not a necessary requirement for enlightened to occur. That does not mean it cannot be helpful. To accommodate ourselves to Tao is to neither force ourselves to meditate, nor to avoid meditation. To either require it or to negate its usefulness is to be out of accord with Tao. If you wish to do meditate, do so; if you don’t like it, then don’t it, there are other methods one may use. Meditation is merely a tool with which some find benefit, and others do not.
I would refer you to the Bhagavad-Gita. Krishna outlines three primary paths to realization, a term I prefer to enlightenment because in my opinion it is more descriptive of what actually occurs. The paths are: The Path of Action, The Path of Devotion and the Path of Wisdom or Knowledge. With each Path the individual applies himself a bit differently. With The Path of Action the individual learns to perform actions selflessly without concern for credit or blame. With The Path of Devotion the individual learns to Love selflessly. With the Path of Knowledge, one investigates reality using philosophical inquiry. Each Path uses a different method to lull or condition the ego into releasing its limiting hold on the mind. Each path is appropriate for different personalities. That is not to imply these are the only three paths available. Hui-Neng the 6th patriarch of Ch’an recommends that “useful expedients” be used for each person according to their temperament. What is important is to understand that all methods are merely tools, the finger pointing to the moon. Whose finger or which finger is doing the pointing is of less importance as long as it points you towards the moon. Once the moon is realized, we may discard the finger (tool).
I do not recommend anything in particular. Each person will be attracted to a method that speaks to them. They will each find their own “useful expedient”. My purpose is to express cautions over blind adherence to the tools used and point out that a tool is merely a tool and not the goal. As long as an individual finds their tool of choice beneficial to achieving their goal then I encourage continuance, but I would still caution against unhealthy attachment to the tool. It is the goal that is important not the tool one uses.
You may ask then, which tool is the best? I would respond there is no “best tool”. We each have our own temperaments and we will gravitate towards the tools that have meaning for us. It s not the tool we use that may cause impediments it is our attachment to the tool we use that could create a hindrance to our continued progress. Since it is not a race to the finish line there is no need to be preoccupied with being led astray. We will all be led astray, that is part of learning to tread the path. There is value and meaning in the lesson even when we get sidetracked or regress from time to time. It is all part of the ebb and flow of Tao.
TCM Student
My english is not very good but i hope you can understand me ...
I must say i agree 100% with Scott ... to reach enlightenment you must follow the way of Tao and live according to your own nature. One must find is way.
There are some modern taoist alchemy acupunctures who say that for true healing one must start living acording to is own nature. One must broke ego and find true self, then one can find the way of tao, and if that is is destiny he will reach enlightenment.
I think perserving the Essence (Jing) is important but having no sex or having less sex just to reach enlightenment is wrong. When one walks in the path of Tao trough meditation or just in a way of living (in exemples given by Scott) the desire for sex will decrease naturally, you dont need to force your self. If you meditate and force your self to have no sex then you will never reach enlightenment because you are not acting according to your own nature.
I'm not a martial art practicer, i play Tai Chi meditation form and Qigong and i'm studying Chinese Medicine.
There are 2 books that i like very much and are essential for one who wich to find is one way. "Nourishing Destiny" by Loney Jarret and "Five Spirits" by Lorie Eve Dechar are 2 modern taoist medical books who explain the theory of living according to Tao. Breaking the blocks inside of you, understanding the different levels of awareness and your self is something that one must do to understand the power of Tao. One can do this by meditating, breathing, acupuncture, praying, whatever ... decreasing sex activitie is something that will happens naturally (if it will happen at all) when you start walking in your own destiny.
According to ancient taoist spiritual tradition, when one borns heaven gives one a destiny. This destiny is not something you have to do in this life but is the way you should live this life. When you born you are in perfect harmony with Tao and your own destiny but you loose this harmony when you start growing. It is one task to return to this harmony during live, to find is destiny, one´s own nature and maybe ... enlightenment.
Dont force your self having no sex, maybe you will open some gates and feel more energy and more strange things ... but that is nothing to do with walking with Tao and enlightenment.
Well ... i hope someone do understand what i´m trying to say ... its not easy for me to express my self in english.
Did anyone here read this books? "Nourishing Destiny" and "Five Spirits"
Enjoy,
Jorge
Registered User
Everyone's already enlightened
Hi TCB,
I was just using the sex aspect for an example, but you got the point. What is the standard? That's why I listed an assumed "enlightenment heirarchy" in my original post. I'm assuming Shakyamuni Buddha and his lineage down to the Ch'an masters of China have the true Dharma. If someone doesn't agree they should submit another standard or there is no point of discussion. Personally, I go with the Zen Buddhist lineage since this is seems to be the best documented and most disciplined path. Even if only a tiny percentage of Zen practitioners achieve satori, I assume that is a higher percentage than any other approach until I find differently.
Why even make an effort at all? Maybe we should just frolic around in the woods all day since everyone is already enlightened? What was that Buddha person after anyway? Why a sangha? Why sit in zazen? Why did the Taoists seem to want to quantify their achievements? I'm assuming there's something there, a point. Then again, maybe it's all a big scam like the Wiz in the Wizard of Oz.
Thanks for actually answering the questions. Maybe you should write a book.
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