Martial Art.. what is the "Art"?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I will begin with a disclaimer, the following is only my opinion.. not an assertion of fact or a contradiction intended to incite conflict.

Art, as i understand it, involves some aspect of creativity.. perhaps, as we evolve in our Martial Skills, we also evolve into the capability to create.. where we can expand beyond mimicry into self-expression consistent with the principles of the Art..

I have seen many skilled "artists" doing forms and/or fighting where they utilize variations of their style in such a manner as to be observably effective and still fit within their style's conceptual limits.. i feel they are "artists"..

It is one thing to master a set of skills (mimicry), another to add your own spirit/flavor to that skill set and still be recognized as the same effective skill set.. in the beginning we mimic to learn the intended value of the skill set, it becomes art when we internalize it into a similar skill set that is optimized for our own experiences..

Sometimes, i think we tend to "lower the bar" to accommodate our desired perception of ourselves.. i largely consider my self as a "Martial Arts Student", working toward the "artist" level of understanding and skill.. i have minimally modified certain aspects of certain forms, presented the modifications to recognized authorities.. i have been corrected, and i have been told that a couple of the modifications are on point.. but, i think that was more blind luck (and my nature to seek the application of any movement)..

I also think it is important to let recognized authorities decide what we are, rather than claim a title.. my students like to call me Sifu, i prefer LaoShi.. or, as i am becoming more comfortable with the nuance of meanings, "coach".. but, so help me, i don't want Coach Ross to know i would affirm that title, he can be SO annoying.. but, i respect his annoying mannerisms..

Crap! now, i'm just rambling.. i think we argue of preferences.. and it is unfortunate that we disrespect people over preferences that are of no real consequence to our own preference.. some people despise cultural and philosophical attachments to their perception of MA.. others imply it is just that that raises martial skill to an art.. but, when you're sitting on the curb holding a hand-full of your own teeth, it doesn't matter whether it was skill or art.. you got schooled..

Be well...

[David Jamieson]

ha ha Asia Nailed it. lol

shocking isn't it! All this "martial art" stuff really does mean "martial" and the "skills and methods" associated with martiality.

If we go be definition and pure understanding of teh words we are using, let's not kid ourselves, what asia has posted is the correct and it's saved me the time from posting it.

I personally find it odd when people want to change the meanings of words to suit their meanings intentions and emotional needs.

You thought it was buddhism philosophy taosit breathing and interesting stretches that prolong your life? well, that augmentaury to it, but the overall picture is exactly as the dictionary identifies it.

[Fu-Pow]

ha ha Asia Nailed it. lol

shocking isn't it! All this "martial art" stuff really does mean "martial" and the "skills and methods" associated with martiality.

If we go be definition and pure understanding of teh words we are using, let's not kid ourselves, what asia has posted is the correct and it's saved me the time from posting it.

I personally find it odd when people want to change the meanings of words to suit their meanings intentions and emotional needs.
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Well SPJ and I showed pretty conclusively that Asia was wrong. His chosen definition of the word "art" was used arbitrarily to fit his interpretation of "martial art" when there are 3 other definitions.

Also, he has not addressed why the word "art" was chosen over the synonyms (BTW, syn means "like," not exactly same) "craft" and "skill."

The merriam-webster quote that I pulled perfectly delineates between the words "art" "craft" and "skill" even though they are synonmyms and mean something like "method to achieve a desired result."

[David Jamieson]

art is defined as a word.

we don't practice martial craft, we practice martial art. we become craftsmen (hopefully) through the practice of the techniques and methods that define the art.

semantics is moot.

art is art by definition as given in whatever dictionary you choose. It will be same.

[TaiChi-IronPalm]

we also evolve into the capability to create.. where we can expand beyond mimicry into self-expression consistent with the principles of the Art..

I have seen many skilled "artists" doing forms and/or fighting where they utilize variations of their style in such a manner as to be observably effective and still fit within their style's conceptual limits.. i feel they are "artists"..

It is one thing to master a set of skills (mimicry), another to add your own spirit/flavor to that skill set

I also think it is important to let recognized authorities decide what we are

True, when I make modifications to tai chi kicks it is from practical experience in real confrontations and in sparring with external stylists. My Sifu either approves of the modification or tell me why it shouldnt be modified if I am wrong. Like the front kicks in Hao style, I use the heel instead of ball sometimes. I am not acting like that puts me to artist, to me martial arts is a skill much like classical music. We call the very skilled, artists in classical music, most of them create thier own music at some point after mastering the classics and so I beleive it to be in TMA. You definitely have valid points Bob no doubt, as always.

[omarthefish]

One thing on all this and that is that language changes.

It sucks and I am a language conservative. I constantly go back to original meanings and semantic roots but unfortunately (**** the heathen mobs!) the thing keeps changing and evolving. It's a pain in the ass because it means that I have to keep clearing up definitions at the begginings of conversations as I never know which one a particular person is using.

So nowadays people are using "martial arts" to mean something akin to the "fine arts" or "arts and crafts" usage of the word "art". It's historically unfounded and kind of dumb and really doesn't reflect anything the way the term came to be but I have to admit, that's what it means to a lot of people NOW.

So suit yourself. If you want to add some additional meaning to the term I can't stop you. It's like a secret code that I have been fortunate enough to crack just like how "biscuits" means kind of dry backed muffins UNLESS I am speaking with someone from England in which case I have to take a mental note that what they really mean is cookies or if they say "chips" what they mean is french (freedom?) fries.

So now in this modern era where hardly anyone anywhere actually practices for the purpose of fighting and even fewer develop their skill to the level where it can be considered an "art", people have taken MA in a new direction. They have taken it as an alternative to improvisational dancing or watercolors. Fact is, most "artists" as in painters, sculptors etc. lack the basic skills to even be considered craftsman let alone artists. Oy.

The term "martial arts" is distinctly western and we'll have to come to terms with it on our own. It has no real basis in Asian languages. In Chinese it might mean wushu or it might mean wuyi. It certainly doesn't translate as gongfu. Ironically, the closest literal translation is "wu shu" and THAT particular term, in Chinese, is distinctly NOT related to "art" in the art school kind of way in any way shape or form. "Wuyi" is but that term has fallen out of use. So if anyone thinks they are doing either Wuyi (China) or Buijitsu (Japan) they have no connection linguistically whatsoever to "art" but only to "craft" or "technique" but language is for communication so go knock yourselves out.

[neilhytholt]

If you want to go back to the English definition, think for a moment, why is it called "martial arts" and not "martial art"???

It's because "martial arts" means mar-tial arts. Arts of or pertaining to WAR. Including for example, strategy, sword fighting, guns, pugilism, etc.

Like Omar pointed out, it's only recently that this came to be considered something like oriental unarmed combat.

Also, terms that come to mean something they're not. Let's take 'kung fu'. This is supposed to be pronounced something like 'gong fu', except it isn't usually because nobody bothered to study the English spellings for the Chinese terms. So Beijing became Peking (same pronunciation), except everybody says it Pee-King now, not Beijing. As with 'gong fu' people now call it 'kung fu'. But it doesn't mean 'martial arts'. It doesn't mean unarmed fighting.

[EarthDragon]

neithyholt.... you said

Also, terms that come to mean something they're not. Let's take 'kung fu'. This is supposed to be pronounced something like 'gong fu', except it isn't usually because nobody bothered to study the English spellings for the Chinese terms. So Beijing became Peking (same pronunciation), except everybody says it Pee-King now, not Beijing. As with 'gong fu' people now call it 'kung fu'. But it doesn't mean 'martial arts'. It doesn't mean unarmed fighting.

there are no spellings in the english language to traslate dircetly from chinese, just similar meanings. you are perhaps lost in literal phonectis
(why is that word not spelled like it sounds)

what does the words "kung fu" mean to you?

[neilhytholt]

neithyholt.... you said

Also, terms that come to mean something they're not. Let's take 'kung fu'. This is supposed to be pronounced something like 'gong fu', except it isn't usually because nobody bothered to study the English spellings for the Chinese terms. So Beijing became Peking (same pronunciation), except everybody says it Pee-King now, not Beijing. As with 'gong fu' people now call it 'kung fu'. But it doesn't mean 'martial arts'. It doesn't mean unarmed fighting.

there are no spellings in the english language to traslate dircetly from chinese, just similar meanings. you are perhaps lost in literal phonectis
(why is that word not spelled like it sounds)

what does the words "kung fu" mean to you?

No, it's not lost in phonetics. There are Romanizations which nobody ever bothered to read. Otherwise they'd know that 'Kung fu' was supposed to be prounounced 'gong fu'.

I have no idea what 'gong fu' means, since I'm not Chinese. I was told by Chinese people that it means skill achieved through work.

I guess I'm a bit confused. Did nobody understand what I wrote there?

If you read a Romanized Chinese (Wade-Giles, Yale, etc.) translation of a book, in the beginning of the book they usually mention how romanizing works. Instead people just skip over that, and don't bother. That's how we got 'Pee-King' and 'Kung-Fu'. Because people phonetically read what is supposed to be a Romanized pronunciation.

And then they don't bother to realize that 'gong fu' doesn't mean martial arts.

So instead in the U.S. you have 'kung fu' meaning martial arts, and I've even run into Chinese people who come over here and don't realize it is really a mis-pronunciation and mis-use of a Chinese word! I had to spend about an hour once explaining to somebody FROM CHINA, and a native MANDARIN speaker that 'peking duck' meant duck cooked 'Beijing' style!!! How's that for irony.

[Fu-Pow]

art is defined as a word.

we don't practice martial craft, we practice martial art. we become craftsmen (hopefully) through the practice of the techniques and methods that define the art.

semantics is moot.

art is art by definition as given in whatever dictionary you choose. It will be same.

Semantics is not moot.

Art, craft and skill mean different things. Asia's contention is that they all mean the same thing. They are "synonyms" meaning that they have a similar meaning but don't mean exactly the same thing.

I refer you to the merriam-webster definition that I posted. It delineates the difference. Merriam-webster is pretty much the gold standard in regards to dictionaries. Oxford is pretty good too.

[neilhytholt]

Semantics is not moot.

Art, craft and skill mean different things. Asia's contention is that they all mean the same thing. They are "synonyms" meaning that they have a similar meaning but don't mean exactly the same thing.

I refer you to the merriam-webster definition that I posted. It delineates the difference. Merriam-webster is pretty much the gold standard in regards to dictionaries. Oxford is pretty good too.

OED is THE gold standard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_English_Dictionary

[Fu-Pow]

One thing on all this and that is that language changes.

It sucks and I am a language conservative. I constantly go back to original meanings and semantic roots but unfortunately (**** the heathen mobs!) the thing keeps changing and evolving. It's a pain in the ass because it means that I have to keep clearing up definitions at the begginings of conversations as I never know which one a particular person is using.

So nowadays people are using "martial arts" to mean something akin to the "fine arts" or "arts and crafts" usage of the word "art". It's historically unfounded and kind of dumb and really doesn't reflect anything the way the term came to be but I have to admit, that's what it means to a lot of people NOW.

The term "art" isn't reserved only for "fine arts" or "arts and crafts." But there is an undeniable connection between those things and anything that you raise to an "art" form.

So suit yourself. If you want to add some additional meaning to the term I can't stop you. It's like a secret code that I have been fortunate enough to crack just like how "biscuits" means kind of dry backed muffins UNLESS I am speaking with someone from England in which case I have to take a mental note that what they really mean is cookies or if they say "chips" what they mean is french (freedom?) fries.

Actually, the meaning of the word "art" is pretty well defined and differentiated from its synonyms.

I think it is that YOU want to divorce martial arts from the "artistry" side of it. Some people want to reduce martial arts to a martial science ie you do this, this and this and you become a great fighter.

There will always be a kind of "creativity" and "artistry" to be a good fighter. Sure you have to learn the skills but ultimately you have forget that stuff and let your movements become an extension of your "self."

[yenhoi]

You are already yourself capable of expressing yourself.

Until, that is, you find some neo-hippie that wants to teach you right from wrong, in between teaching you how to be crafty about waving your hands in the air, and learn bits and pieces of another language.

Learning to fight is not about learning to be a good person, and neither one of those aspects has to do with arts or crafts or how you chose to define them or choose to ignore the definition.

It wont matter what you call your self, or what you "do" after you have been beaten to a pulp. The same is true after you have beaten someone to a pulp. Why would you need to "express yourself truthfully" in order to survive or avoid an altercation?

Why does it matter if you "do" Martial Arts, vs Martial Science, vs Martial Crafts, vs Methods of smashing other people faces? Whats really in a name? How does it help you fight on after being pepper sprayed, tazered, or smashed with a baton in the legs or with a beer mug in the face?

[yenhoi]

Its pretty creative to walk up behind someone and smash their face into a slot machine. its much less creative to tweak a few parts of an age old form so you can get the nod from some old dudes.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

You are already yourself capable of expressing yourself.

yenhoi: Capable, yes.. but, too few know how to express themselves.. they usually express how they think others would most appreciate them.. Most of the tripe i see in here is intended to demonstrate how macho someone wants others to think they are, i.e.:

Its pretty creative to walk up behind someone and smash their face into a slot machine. its much less creative to tweak a few parts of an age old form so you can get the nod from some old dudes.

Martial Arts, an interesting phrase.. we see the differing perspectives, and the passions those perspectives generate.. I will share my vision, the how and why i got into this stuff..
After being introduced to Judo by my dad in the mid 60's, I was really influenced by the movies and such of the late 60's - early 70's.. so i went looking for that elusive place where i could learn it all.. serious combat skills, deep meditational skills, calligraphy, music, philosophy.. the whole thing.. i really wanted to be the "Scholar Warrior".. 40 years later i have begun to scratch the surface, i've taken a few steps on the journey.. One of my great lessons has been to realize that each of us has our own reality, that to each of us a word or phrase has a meaning unique to our individual history of experience, unique to our individual aspirations.. As we can see, "Martial Art" means many things to many people.. but, the wisdom is in the respect we afford to anyone seeking to improve their condition, regardless of its conformity to our own unique perspective..

I do not understand the thought processes that arrive at the theory that Martial Art is purely about "survival of the fittest".. it is one of the gifts of being human that we can evolve beyond that primitive mentallity.. we can insure the survival of many.. we can organize a society of "Warriors in the Garden", supremely prepared and consciously reluctant.. I do not train to prove how good i am, i train to avoid conflict, or.. if no alternative is apparent, to prevail in the field of battle.. Lessons learned through competitive combat training are equally applicable to life in general, like Sun Tzu's "Art of War".. which applies to inter-personal relationships as well as organized combat..

Until, that is, you find some neo-hippie that wants to teach you right from wrong, in between teaching you how to be crafty about waving your hands in the air, and learn bits and pieces of another language.

As much as some people dislike "hippies".. i am neither fond of swashbuckling, tatooed, muscle-shirted, shaved head wannabes.. walking advertisements for conflict.. you wouldn't notice me in a crowd, you wouldn't suspect i had any potential as a fighter by casual observation.. and i will generally seek to avoid physical confrontation.. the power of surprise should not be under-estimated..

Neither superior fighting skills nor cultural studies are mutually exclusive.. they can and do blend nicely.. that someone prefers one or both over another is simple preference, not a universal law.. That UFC or NHB proponent's challenges to TCMA proponents go unanswered neither validates or invalidates either.. it indicates people's preferences. Taunts and challenges are generally primitive responses to undesirable stimulus..

So, i will pursue my "Scholar Warrior" goal and i will not neglect the warrior aspect.. as always, i will respect the drive, dedication, and sacrifice made by the elite warriors, those that reject all but the most intense warrior's code.. My hope in starting this thread was that we might find a middle ground, some mutual respect.. oh well, we'll see...

Be well...