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Thread: David Kash vs Royal Dragon.

  1. #16
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    Tai Tzu is rather common in China, and Taiwan, just not in the US. Even that being said, there is more of it here than meets the eye.

    Tai Tzu was spread VERY prolifically through the military during the Ming dynasty. It was also spread by the Chao family, and the Shaolin temple during the Sung dynasty.

    Because of this, there were many, many lines. Tai Tzu is probably the widest spread Chinese art there is. Because of this, complete Tai Tzu lines vary in size and curriculem, and each has it's own evolution. Some branches today are just a single form. Many are three forms, or one form taught in 3 sections. Some are 10 or 12 sets, others still are 2 forms, the original 32, and one really HUGE set that is 18 sections long (common in Hubei i believe)

    All branches are very similar despite the size though. You can see by the flavor,and the presence of several, to all of the original 32 techniques in every form. You can't just do a modern Chin Woo form, and call it Tai Tzu because both are Long fist. Tai Tzu has distinct techniques and flavor found in every form. You also can't do Tai Chi, and call it Tai Tzu. The arts are too different.
    Last edited by Royal Dragon; 05-23-2006 at 08:46 PM.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

  2. #17
    lamakwoklee,

    > Is northern Tai Tzu Chang Quan taught in the U.S?
    Yes, there are some Long Fist people are teaching in US.

    Our Long Fist has a form called Tai Tzu Chang Chuan (Tai Tzu Long Fist). It is a form shown by Royal Dragon, http://www.yangsandover.com/videos.shtml?page=Li1. it is not a system. The Tai Tzu 1st and 2end forms shaolinche practicing are also forms not a system. In Taiwan, there is a southern shaolin system called Tai Tzu Chuan. That is a system and has empty forms and weapons. The system was from Fu Jian province a centry ago or maybe longer.

    I have seen from a tape shown northern shaolin form with Tai Tzu Chan Chuan 1st and 2end forms too. It's different from our version.

    Chinese like to name their forms after something or someone famous.

    Cheers,

  3. #18
    Again thank you to those who've provided helpful commentary, and information. I believe the more knowledge that's put out about authenitc Tai Tzu Quan the better for the art. I'm still rather hazy about what Northern Tai Tzu Chang Quan consists of, and the location of Qualified instructors. For instance is there a Tai Tzu version of Pong Lai, or Wu Tang?

  4. #19
    I don't know about Pong Lai version of it. But, if their Tai Tzu Chang Chuan was from Long Fist in Taiwan, then it is our version. I believe Wu Tang's version is ours since several people like Adam Hsu in Wu Tang was Long Fist people. They learned their Tai Tzu Chang Chuan through their senior LF brothers. Our version is the most taught Tai Tzu Chang Chuan in Taiwan and probably here in states also. I'm not saying it is the best, simply because there are more teachers teaching LF in Taiwan, especially in 1960-1990.

    Cheers,

  5. #20
    Oops! I was writing in a hurry so i didn't define, and limit context the way I usually do. I didn't literally mean a Pong Lai or Wutang version of Tai Tzu Quan. I meant is there an organization whose mission is specifically to do for Tai Tzu Quan what Pong Lai and Wu Tang do for Praying Mantis.

  6. #21
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    Here is where it gets confusing. Tai Tzu very much can be a complete system in a single form. That is how it started out. It's similar to Taiji Quan like that. It can also have many forms depending on each lines evolution. we are talking abut a style that is over 1000 years old, and was spread prolifically by the military.

    There are just too many ancient branches of it out there to nail it down by looking at the curriculum of a system. The art is in the techniques in the form, and "How" they are performed. All legit tai tzu sets have some, or all of the original 32 moves in the set. there are several main branches, each with their own expression. You have to know what those are, and compare in order to identify it.

    You can see shadows of it in modern arts as well. Take Chen Taiji. You see many individual techniques in Chen Taiji, that are also in Tai tzu, and some North mantis styles actually have Tai Tzu forms in their curriculum, as do many Long fist styles.

    The only way to really get it, is to collect as much of it as you can, and compare, compare, compare. Once you do, you begin to se what it is, and what is not. Claims that modern Taiji Forms are Tai Tzu begin to look ridiculous, as to claims that Chin woo Long Fist forms are Tai Tzu also look ridiculous. But you can look at really old Shaolin Hong fist, and see they are definitely Tai Tzu sets or Tai Tzu derived sets.

    Tai Tzu also has different branches, form different time periods. From what I can tell, the style was perfected during the Ming dynasty. I believe lineages for the Ming are smoother than the older stuff. Like the form I linked to before. The old Tai Tzu is more ugly.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

  7. #22
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    You can see shadows of it in modern arts as well. Take Chen Taiji. You see many individual techniques in Chen Taiji, that are also in Tai tzu, and some North mantis styles actually have Tai Tzu forms in their curriculum, as do many Long fist styles.
    which mantis sets do you identify at TZ?
    "George never did wake up. And, even all that talking didn't make death any easier...at least not for us. Maybe, in the end, all you can really hope for is that your last thought is a nice one...even if it's just about the taste of a nice cold beer."

    "If you find the right balance between desperation and fear you can make people believe anything"

    "Is enlightenment even possible? Or, did I drive by it like a missed exit?"

    It's simpler than you think.

    I could be completely wrong"

  8. #23
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    The Tiger Swallow sets.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

  9. #24
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    Not sure how good this is but here ya go.

    http://www.shaolinbrand.com/88612dvd.html

  10. #25
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    That dvd is VERY good! it's full of legit Tai Tzu sets!
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royal Dragon
    The Tiger Swallow sets.

    hunh, ok. I don't think those are in my line, I'll ask Kevin.

    thanks.
    "George never did wake up. And, even all that talking didn't make death any easier...at least not for us. Maybe, in the end, all you can really hope for is that your last thought is a nice one...even if it's just about the taste of a nice cold beer."

    "If you find the right balance between desperation and fear you can make people believe anything"

    "Is enlightenment even possible? Or, did I drive by it like a missed exit?"

    It's simpler than you think.

    I could be completely wrong"

  12. #27
    I take credit for asking Shaolinbrand to make that video available again. As I understand, it was part of the China Martial Arts Survey series. They've reintroduced it and at a good price too. I'm not claiming to be all powerful, but if you let them know that you want it, they'll sell it. I wonder what other gems are contained in that series.

    Can anyone tell me what other media contains Tai Tzu Quan? I heard a rumor about Green Dragon studios having something. I haven't felt like going to the hassle of trying to contact them. Wait three months for the brochure you've requested, then six months to recieve your order. By the way, I have no affiliation with Chin Wu, though it's an honorable organization with a long and illustrious history. I'm also no expert in Tai Tzu Quan. I just think it's a rather handsome style.
    Last edited by lamakwoklee; 05-26-2006 at 01:13 PM. Reason: mispelling

  13. #28
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    I know plumb productions has some good VCDs
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

  14. #29
    Plumb Publications is excellent. A good source for material that can't be found anywhere else. For Tai Tzu Quan however I'm not so sure. I saw a clip from a VCD featuring a monk in a long jacket. He looked pretty cool, but as for the Tai Tzu form he was showing, I wasn't impressed. It was very square looking with many movements obscured by the long coat.

  15. #30
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    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

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