David Kash vs Royal Dragon.

[Royal Dragon]

Geographically, Long Fist and Praying Mantis are all popular in Sang Dong province, China. That is also where my GM Han and GM Wong came from. GM Wong taught at Qing-Dao Guo Shu Guan in early 1900. GM Han also deeply related to the place. Both of them knew each other then way before they came to Taiwan. I would not be supprised that LF people from that area also learned PM forms and PM people learned LF form, because Qing Dao Guo Shu Guan taught both systems. Several PM masters in Taiwan were also very good at Shuai Chaio because they learned it form the school.

Reply]
Interesting. There is a lot of Tai Tzu in Shan Dong. I'm told it is common there. That all being said, I bet the little Tiger Swollow at least came from Tai tzu, The middle and big Tiger Swollow may have beed devised by PM players later.

[Robert Young]

> That all being said, I bet the little Tiger Swollow at least came from Tai tzu, The
> middle and big Tiger Swollow may have beed devised by PM players later.

I can not say about other systems, but in Long Fist, Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is only a form not a system. Our Long Fist did not have Little Tiger Swallow form. Most of the people from other systems in Taiwan I know who have learned LTS all learned from Praying Mantis. Maybe there are other thing I don't know, but I have not seen anyone whose LTS did not come from PM. And, I have been in CMA society for 35+ years.

As how the Big, Middle, and Little Tiger Swallow got evolved, I would guess it all came from a big form. Later, people make it into 3 different forms. The reason I say this is because that is a common practice in CMA. For example, LF has Mai-Fu forms. First and second forms are most commonly practiced today. But, Both of them came from the same big form. Because the form was too big, people has hard time to learn and practice it. Our ancestors broke the form into several forms so that each form practice certain features of the big form. I have seen people pratice Mai-Fu with both first and second forms integrated together.

Like I said before, the only Tai Tzu as a name for a system I know is a southern CMA in Taiwan and it was from Fu Jian province located rught across the straight from Taiwan. It has nothing to do with Praying Mantise at all. Maybe there are other Tai Tzu in other parts of China, but those are the only Tai Tzu I know.

Cheers,

[MasterKiller]

I posted these videos in the "Palm Kung Fu" thread.

While these guys aren't that good (some of them stumble and lose balance), you can see the form is played with a more Long Fist flavor.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...=search_videos

[Royal Dragon]

Robert Young,
Tai tzu is very much a complete system with many branches. In addition to that, you have bits an peices of it scattered through out a large number of Long Fist styles.

The Southern is younger than the Northern. technically they are different styles, but with roots in the same imperial family.

[Robert Young]

> While these guys aren't that good (some of them stumble and lose balance),
> you can see the form is played with a more Long Fist flavor.


I don't see any of our LF flavor in those clips actually. I don't know how you see it. If they are LF moves, then they are the best bad examples of LF moves. Also, LF does not has Diao Sou (hook) next to the head, that is typical PM moves. Besides, the persons performed the form were way too slow. With that kind of speed, you can not tell what style they are actually. PM supposed to be fast, so is LF.

Like I said before, Lots of LF people who learned LTS did not understand the difference between LF and PM. And, later they kind of mix them together. But, that does not mean it is correct to do it that way. PM is PM, LF is LF. Fortunately, there is no conflict to practice both of them (some systems do).

Cheers,

[shuaichiao]

I've gotta figure out whats wrong with my video capture/editing software. I have a really good video of this form from my lineage and you can clearly see all the mantis hook techniques used through out the form.

[Shaolin Master]

Xiao Huyan (小虎燕) is from mizongquan/yanqingquan. It is not from Taizu Changquan.

A derived version has been passed in seven star praying mantis (Which was predominantly influenced by Wang Rongsheng and co, and lies along with Cha Chui, Si Lu Beng Da etc which are also from mizongquan).

Fujian (or Southern) Taizuquan is not related to Northern Taizu Changquan other than in legend. The reality is they are completely different in principle, energics and content. Fujian Taizuquan is indigenous to the region and is the muquan or mother fist of fujian.

Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Royal Dragon]

Thank You!! Your input is allways appreciated!!

[Oso]

Mantis people say Wang Lang invented them, based on Shaolin Longfist.

huh?

generally only Beng Bu, Lien Jie(sp?) and Ba Zhou are credited to WL.

[MasterKiller]

huh?

generally only Beng Bu, Lien Jie(sp?) and Ba Zhou are credited to WL.

Xiao Hu Yan Quan is sometimes said to be the first form he created, before Beng Bu. That's what some guys say, anyway. Something about seeing a painting of a crane fighting a tiger at Shaolin Temple that inspired him to create the form.

[Oso]

heh, ok. It's all legend anyway. No way to prove what WL actually created or even real proof that he existed.

no matter. though, I've never run across that he created the Tiger Swallow sets at all....maybe something from the CCM line since they claim so many sets. Not dissing them at all...I think Sifu Albright or others in that line would be welcome to share more.

one thing I've thunk, is that since Beng Bu supposedly captures all the Keywords...and some recent speculation has it that most forms aren't really that old at all...that WL may have come up with the Keywords as theory or technique and then someone else created the form much later...assuming that 'kung fu' prior to...let's say 1800, had no forms at all but was more like MMA training today in that the guys doing it had real need of fighting skill but not a lot of need to look good. So, time wasn't spent on memorizing forms but more on beating the crap out of each other in a friendly way so that others, in a not so friendly way, wouldn't kill them.

just a thunk.

[MasterKiller]

Your input is allways appreciated!!

LOL.

That's RD's way of saying "your info does not fit into my solipsistic viewpoint that everything comes from Tai Tzu, but thanks for trying".

[Royal Dragon]

Actually no, the man is a trusted research resource for me. I genuenly appreciate his imput.

[svenfeynord]

Dear Master Yuk Hing,

I have searched online and on this forum for tai chi chuan. I have found various styles and come to the conclusion that tai tzu chang chuan is the style I wish to study. Every other style I have looked at seems not worth while. The photo clips on this website, from shao lin, taiwan, and from other companies I have viewed all look like karate and hard forms. I know that real tai chi/tai tzu surely does not look like this. I have seen you and your father's notes on tai chi and I was very impressed. I wish to learn more from you. Money is no object and I will pay you whatever your price is. I will pay for over night shipping. Can you send me any DVD's or videos and information you would be willing to provide? Any of this information will be greatly appreciated.

I will also contact you through private messages with my address and get your address to send you my check. If postal money order is neccessary one can be provided. I also have a paypal account if that helps. I can overnight you the money to Canada if this will be the easiest method. I will pay for all shipping fees.

Thank you sincerely,
Sven

[Royal Dragon]

.................................................. .................................................. ..............................