Chinese 'black belt = master' tradition?

[kingabiu]

Is there any good reasons to think that the black-belt tradition predated Jigoro Kano, that it was a chinese idea, that he got the idea from kungfu?

I've came across the claim that there is an old saying in Chinese martial arts that you don't fool with a shuai jiao player who has a "black" belt (meaning that it is never washed and it turns black after years of practice) and you don't mess with a spear-user who has a "black" spear (the white waxwood turns black from the constant usage where the hands grip and slide).

Has anyone else heard this saying? Do you believe it predates the influence of the Judo belt-ranking system? Does anyone have other, better evidence -- perhaps old pictures of masters with black belts, and students with white belts?

[B-Rad]

Yeah, I've heard similiar to the shui jiao player's saying that you gave. The guy I heard if from was a former teacher of mine who turned out to be a fraud, so I really never took to many of his "sayings" seriously, but he did have contact with a local shui jiao guy before we met him.

I don't think there was ever a belt ranking system in Chinese martial arts before, but I supose the colour progression could have been inspired by a similiar saying/story. I really don't know anything about judo's history though, so it's just a random guess on my part

[EarthDragon]

in my years, I have heard two things reguarding belts.

The one was as you said, the more you tied and untied the cotton belt that held you uniform or Gi together the dirtier it got hence changing from white to black

The second is that while you wore a black colored belt and you tied and untied it so many thousands of times the color wore out and it turned white again which meant comming full circle and learning all over again this time with knowledge.

It was shorlty there after that japan incorportated colors to show how far down this path you have gone.

Colors have alwaysd signified importance in chinese culture soilder, general, etc etc royalty, peasant...... So there is some history claiiming that the higher ones knowledge of art became the richer the colors of silk he wore