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Thread: Qi-Gong Psychotic Reaction: DSM-IV

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher M
    On the other hand, medication compliance, particularly with psychotic populations, can be extremely low. And this idea that it is the patient's responsability to put forth the effort to attend and benefit from therapy is part of a particular culture of therapy rather than a necessary principle of therapy in general. It's possible to do extremely beneficial therapeutic work with inpatients, it just takes a different mindset than therapists are typically trained to have.
    Well, part of it may be mindset. Part of it is that if you are only keeping a person in inpatient care until they are no longer a threat to themselves or others, then by definition, they are in a state in which they are not equipped to attend to or benefit much from therapy. This is not to say that they cannot benefit at all, just that if thereapy is to be conducted, it must have very specific, simple, and short-term goals. Further, it may be sad to accept, but the system for the most part is just not set up for this. The people in the best position to conduct therapy in an inpatient unit are the nurses, and they simply have too much to do to be able to work with each patient in this way. I know of one hospital in Columbus in which they actually do some inpatient therapy (conducted by the psych nurses), but that hospital is selective about what patients it takes. When all your patients are insured or can pay for their care, and are not mainly substance abusers with behavioral issues (but rather legitimately ill people), you can afford to reduce the patient to nurse ratio somewhat and can actully get some therapy done.

    Regarding the whole patient's responsibility to engage therapy, I'm not saying we should write off patients that are unable or unwilling to actively participate in therapy, but in my opinion it is simply a fact that until someone accepts that they are ill and takes an active interest in getting better, no therapy is going to be an effective long-term solution. Therapy=work. The therapist can try to help a person to understand why the work is worthwhile, medication can help clear a person's thoughts so they can start to make decisions that are in their best interests, but ultimately, I can't think of a therapy that works with patients who are not actively participating. If there is such a therapy, please refer me to some resources/research.


    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher M
    Right, but the problem is that it isn't clearly anyone's role any more. Which is probably why active therapeutic approaches, such as that mentioned above, are so rare. Even clinical psychologists are largely abandoning psychotherapeutic roles for strictly psychodiagnostic ones. Good therapists typically have training as therapists alongside whatever profession they have, but this is preventing the development of 'therapist' as a professional identity, along with the benefits that this would bring.
    As someone who is training to ultimately prescribe and conduct therapy, this comment strikes close to home. The whole chaotic nature of the professional environment for people like myself (who see the value of therapy and want it to be a large part of what they do) makes me very nervous about my future. There are big problems with the system right now in terms of poor continuity of care within mental health and the absence of mechanisms to help people stay on track when they have the will but sometimes lack the cognitive or financial resources to do so.
    The cinnabun palm is deadly, especially when combined with the tomato kick. - TenTigers

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by dwid
    Part of it is that if you are only keeping a person in inpatient care until they are no longer a threat to themselves or others, then by definition, they are in a state in which they are not equipped to attend to or benefit much from therapy. This is not to say that they cannot benefit at all, just that if thereapy is to be conducted, it must have very specific, simple, and short-term goals.
    I'm not sure this is necessarily true. Certainly therapy in this venue will have elements of 'crisis management' but unless crisis management is understood as antithetical to the goals or methods of long-term therapy, there's no reason why one couldn't be working on both at once. Although inpatient stays are so short these days that perhaps we should be talking about 'post-psychiatric' patients rather than inpatients.

    Further, it may be sad to accept, but the system for the most part is just not set up for this.
    This is definitely true, but again I think it's part of the problem of there being no professional identity and not really much support for therapy.

    Regarding the whole patient's responsibility to engage therapy, I'm not saying we should write off patients that are unable or unwilling to actively participate in therapy, but in my opinion it is simply a fact that until someone accepts that they are ill and takes an active interest in getting better, no therapy is going to be an effective long-term solution.
    I would suggest that "accepting you are ill and taking an active interest in getting better" is part of the progress of therapy rather than a pre-requisite. To the extent that it's treated as a pre-requisite, severe mental illness is in principle excluded from therapy, and the therapeutic goals in cases of less severe mental illness become restricted to initial complaints (which are what gets defined as the illness and as what the patient has an interest in affecting, but which, from a long-term therapeutic perspective, are not infrequently defenses in themselves that need to be addressed).

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher M
    I'm not sure this is necessarily true. Certainly therapy in this venue will have elements of 'crisis management' but unless crisis management is understood as antithetical to the goals or methods of long-term therapy, there's no reason why one couldn't be working on both at once. Although inpatient stays are so short these days that perhaps we should be talking about 'post-psychiatric' patients rather than inpatients.
    I understand where you're coming from here, and, like I said, I can see there being a point to very short-term goal-oriented stuff, but the lack of continuity of care (a systemic problem) ultimately precludes getting very much done. I agree that there's no reason to not "work on both at once," but without a mechanism for a smooth transition/continuity from the acute setting to the outpatient one, a lot of whatever progress can be made in therapy stands to be lost in this transition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher M
    I would suggest that "accepting you are ill and taking an active interest in getting better" is part of the progress of therapy rather than a pre-requisite. To the extent that it's treated as a pre-requisite, severe mental illness is in principle excluded from therapy, and the therapeutic goals in cases of less severe mental illness become restricted to initial complaints (which are what gets defined as the illness and as what the patient has an interest in affecting, but which, from a long-term therapeutic perspective, are not infrequently defenses in themselves that need to be addressed).
    Well, severely acute patients suffering from a psychotic episode or a manic episode, in my opinion, cannot benefit much from therapy until they transition out of the acute phase of their illness. Further, therapy alone is highly unlikely to help someone suffering from a severe illness such as schizophrenia. Without medication, all the therapy in the world is not going to do a whole lot. Therapy in such a case is a great supplement to meds, but is no substitute. Further, while the goals in less severe illness may initially be restricted to "initial complaints," an individual who is sincere in seeking help will likely be receptive to the initial complaint representing a symptom rather than the illness itself. Most modern therapies aren't really built around the idea of digging all that deep from an initial complaint anyway, and some of the more modern therapies, such as cognitive and cognitive-behavioral therapies, have pretty stong support in the research for their efficacy.
    The cinnabun palm is deadly, especially when combined with the tomato kick. - TenTigers

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by dwid
    ...but without a mechanism for a smooth transition/continuity from the acute setting to the outpatient one, a lot of whatever progress can be made in therapy stands to be lost in this transition.
    Right, which is another reason why I think we need a clearly identified professional role of 'therapist' so there is someone to provide this continuity.

    Well, severely acute patients suffering from a psychotic episode or a manic episode, in my opinion, cannot benefit much from therapy until they transition out of the acute phase of their illness. Further, therapy alone is highly unlikely to help someone suffering from a severe illness such as schizophrenia. Without medication, all the therapy in the world is not going to do a whole lot. Therapy in such a case is a great supplement to meds, but is no substitute.
    Well, I'm not suggesting an either-or situation, but in my experience valuable work can be done both with and without medication, and also in acute stages; although, again, methods and experience specific to this situation are needed. From one point of view, as I mentioned above, medication compliance can be an issue in the therapy, and so therapeutic work with nonmedicated patients can be part of an overall progress towards the patient's involvement and interest in their treatment (including, here, psychopharmachological treatment). Again, this important contribution is foreclosed if medication is considered a prerequisite for psychotherapy.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher M
    Well, I'm not suggesting an either-or situation, but in my experience valuable work can be done both with and without medication, and also in acute stages; although, again, methods and experience specific to this situation are needed. From one point of view, as I mentioned above, medication compliance can be an issue in the therapy, and so therapeutic work with nonmedicated patients can be part of an overall progress towards the patient's involvement and interest in their treatment (including, here, psychopharmachological treatment). Again, this important contribution is foreclosed if medication is considered a prerequisite for psychotherapy.
    I can agree with you there. I think we're pretty much in agreement, I just had maybe a more rigorous definition in mind of what constituted therapy.
    The cinnabun palm is deadly, especially when combined with the tomato kick. - TenTigers

  6. #36

    Qi Gong Psychotic Reaction/Deviation DSM Culture Bound Syndrome

    What is Qi Gong Psychosis?

    It is a time limited psychotic mental break. The classic case often quoted from China involved a house painter, self-taught in Qi Gong, that began to believe he could speak to beings from another dimension. It is included in the DSM as a Culture Bound Syndrome.

    Most sites agree that the event happens when too many Qi Gong sessions are performed in a compact time frame. But they believe the mental break is caused by miss-handling universal life energy, Chee. Some claim performing the Kata incorrectly is the cause. One site blames demons.

    The actual cause is much simpler but it reveals how Qi Gong actually works and contradicts the beliefs of those who practice Qi Gong. (Sometimes there is a price for advancing knowledge.)

    In the 1960’s designers building new close-spaced office workstations encountered a problem when knowledge workers using them began to have mental breaks. The problem was investigated and psychologists determined that Subliminal Sight and Peripheral Vision Reflexes had acted in the “special circumstances” those workstations created to cause the mental events. The Cubicle solved the problem by 1968.


    It is difficult to see at first but performing Qi Gong in-groups also creates those “special circumstances.” Concentration in the form of eyes-open meditation substitutes for the mental investment to perform knowledge work. The movement of others close beside you provides detectable movement in peripheral vision to trigger repeating attempts to cause a peripheral vision reflex.

    One way to look at the problem is that the constant subliminal appreciation of threat, movement in your Subliminal Peripheral Vision, eventually colors thought and reason creating paranoia, fear, and the psychiatric outcomes. (Google the "Awakening of Kundalini.")

    Your brain does not identify the nature of the moving object it just reacts to the movement. It is a warn first identify second system. The reaction is a startle and sudden gut wrenching apprehension which forces you to look and identify the detected movement. You will learn to ignore safe movement but that does not turn the system off. That means you can also be exposed to visual Subliminal Distraction in many places. The additional exposure during Qi Gong performances would push you past the threshold of exposure and cause the mental break.

    Low level long-term exposure for some users of Qi Gong and Kundalini Yoga creates fixed altered mental states in which the user begins to believe they have superhuman strength and supernatural powers. One such belief is that a Qi Gong master can cast Chee from his fingertips to strike an opponent. For Kundalini Yoga users these beliefs include the ability to levitate, walk unharmed through solid objects, dematerialize - become invisible, and read other’s minds and control their actions by mental telepathy. These beliefs are usually called “psychotic-like.”

    This means that the actual reason you have health and mental state improvements by performing Qi Gong is operant conditioning.

    VisionAndPsychosis.Net is a private psychology project, which includes Qi Gong deviation as evidence that visual Subliminal Distraction is an unknown and unevaluated cause of mental illness.

    One of the first mistakes investigators make is to believe that the disorders of the DSM actually exist. They are observed then grouped and named behaviors. The names are given based on the length of the acute phase and the content of the behavior. Authors of the DSM openly admit they do not know what causes any of the disorders. Trauma is the latest theory. Most of the theories involve a belief in the fragility of the human psyche.

    http://visionandpsychosis.net/QiGong..._Diversion.htm Start by performing the psychology demonstration and scanning the Everquest Connection page.

    Illustrations will be added to facilitate communication later this summer.

    One of the first symptoms is "hearing voices." This is shown through investigation of other Culture Bound Syndromes.

    If you suspect you are beginning to have the epidode stop performing Qi Gong and search your daily activities for other places of exposure. It is not necessary to eliminate them all. We each have exposure daily. Most of it is harmless.

  7. #37
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    This explains so much...

    ...well, not really. I just wanted to post this somewhere.
    Global Update
    Mental Illness: Far More Chinese Have Mental Disorders Than Previously Reported, Study Finds
    The New York Times
    By DONALD G. McNEIL Jr.
    Published: June 15, 2009

    The burden of mental illness in China has been seriously underestimated, the authors of a new study say. More than 17 percent of Chinese adults have a mental disorder, the study concluded — far more than the 1 to 9 percent reported in studies done between 1982 and 2004.

    To do the study, published in the journal Lancet last week, researchers at Columbia University and major psychiatric hospitals in Beijing, Shandong, Zhejiang, Qinghai and Gansu screened 63,000 adults with questionnaires, and psychiatrists interviewed more than 16,000 of them, often in local dialects. The research was financed by the World Health Organization, the Shandong provincial health department and the China Medical Board of New York, an independent medical foundation begun in 1914 by the Rockefeller Foundation, which supports medical education and research across Asia.

    The most disturbing aspect of their research, the authors said, was that, among those who had a diagnosable mental illness, 24 percent said they were moderately or severely disabled by it. But only 8 percent had ever sought professional help, and only 5 percent had ever seen a mental health professional.

    People from rural areas were more likely to be depressed and have alcohol problems than urbanites, the study found. Mood and anxiety disorders were more common in people over 40 and among women, while alcohol abuse was much more common among men.

    Although the authors did not reflect at length on the role of China’s economic rise, which has led to mass migrations of poor people to the cities, they acknowledged that they were measuring some effects.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    The research was financed by the World Health Organization, the Shandong provincial health department and the China Medical Board of New York, an independent medical foundation begun in 1914 by the Rockefeller Foundation, which supports medical education and research across Asia.
    this is the meat of the article...

    i believe the practice of qigong and other forms of energy-work activate encoded sequences of DNA - thus we get the concept of being filled with light(energy) aka en-light-enment. the more our dormant DNA sequences are turned on and fired up, the more our mental, spiritual, and physical bodies transmute and evolve... naturally to those outside this line of thinking will view the manifestations of this inner wisdom and sense of peace as being a mental disorder of sorts that impairs our ability to function in the world marketted to us to live in. finding your center and bringing harmony to the mind, body, and spirit, is NOT what the controllers of the world want you to do... any attempts to shed light on this understanding will invite the judgement of the witch hunters.

  9. #39
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    Psycotic like experiences due to Qigong?

    Seriously, are any of the practitioners here free from experiencing phenomenon that might be hard to explain to a psychologist? If we start calling everyone who feels the chi spin, accumulate or flow, crazy, then silk winding is a dangerous tool to make people psychotic. Heaven forbid anyone start to actually see any of this energy flowing.

    It is pretty easy to find people on youtube that are pretty far gone in their practice, but, in general, I believe that the perceptions that qigong tends to give are a more natural state of being. That said, I do think great care should be taken. Finding a constructive teacher with high ideals is a good idea.
    .

    Bob
    Not so much a master of tai chi,
    more of a slave to tai chi.

  10. #40

    Information contradicts worldwide research

    The information you posted on mental illness in China is interesting. It contradicts information that has been replicated for about a hundred years around the world.

    There is more mental illness in cities than in rural areas every where else.

    Why is this reversed for China?

    I doubt it has anything to do with Qi Gong or Kung Fu.

    Low income rural areas in China may still use too-small single-room living arrangements. It would be interesting to investigate this.

    That situation would allow Subliminal Distraction exposure.

    Around the world where these living arrangements are used there are mental events called Culture Bound Syndromes. Qi Gong Psychotic Reaction is a CBS. Jumping Frenchmen of Maine was a CBS of the northern United States and Canada. I happened when groups of men lived in single room bunkhouses in lumber camps. It disappeared when modern logging equipment replaced those camps.

    If you want to see an example of this go to YouTube and search George Dilman. He was featured in the National Geographic Channel program Is It Real? "Superhuman Powers."

    Dilman believes he can throw Chee energy from his hands to strike opponents.

    He has those beliefs from years of instructing one student while others move around him in his peripheral vision. That's Subliminal Distraction exposure.

    I have a link to his YouTube video on my First Psychotic Episodes page but it is under a rewrite and I may move the link to another page.

    This is not considered psychotic because he functions normally in his every day life. It is usually referred to as psychotic-like.

    The danger is that if you have enough exposure to create one of these mental breaks you will have a fatal accident by acting out the delusions of the episode.

    The Virginia Tech shooter created the circumstances for SD exposure, had the psychotic episode, and killed 32 people. Remember his paranoid psychotic rant? That was Subliminal Distraction exposure.

    The symptoms of the episode can be shown to be fear, paranoia, panic attacks, depression, and thoughts of suicide.
    visionandpsychosis.Net
    Last edited by Researcher; 06-19-2009 at 12:13 PM. Reason: Left out link to site page.

  11. #41
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    Gene,

    I do agree that the mainland has undercounted the millions who have psychological problems and it is made worse by the refusal to diagnose or even consider it a problem. Modernity will even create worse problem because China does not recognize psychiatry as a 'real' field in that the population looks to demons, spirits and such as the cause and no real solution will be found.

    The present solution is to blame qigong for such ills and this is made worse by political ideology compounded by socioeconomic distress.

  12. #42

    Modern Western Treatment

    In primitive societies those with psychiatric symptoms such as hearing voices are revered as having supernatural powers.

    Qi Gong has been noted for causing psychiatric symptoms for about 3000 years. A supernatural force, chee, is believed to be the source of these behaviors.

    Although explained in first semester psychology very few people are aware of Subliminal Distraction. No one else has noted that performing Qi Gong in group exercises creates the circumstances for SD exposure.

    Just because there is a belief in mainland treatments for mental illness does not mean that that modern treatment is either helpful or effective.

    There is no "testable credible objective evidence" that these modern western treatments do anything.

    Experts admit they don't know what causes any psychiatric symptom. Worse yet there is no test for effectiveness for drugs used. Patients get better while taking them and that is used to claim effectiveness.

    The mentally ill improve on placebos then relapse when told their drug was a placebo. Suggestion was enough for recovery in those test groups.

    It has been known for about 500 years that those with mental illness have spontaneous recovery. They get better with no treatment. Without viable testing for drugs it is not possible to state that the improvements while taking drugs is not just spontaneous recovery coincidental with treatment.

    (If you read the prescribing instructions for these drugs, quoted on my site, you learn there is no knowledge of how or if they work. They only have to beat random chance or placebo to be sold as safe and effective. Some sources quote rates as low as 20/30% for drug effectiveness. )

    There have been studies and articles showing that placebo often beats drugs in testing. You would never know that without an FOIA filing with the FDA. Drug companies dismiss the failed testing.

    Learning about Subliminal Distraction and avoiding it will prevent psychiatric symptoms. There is no cost, nothing you must do, no special diet, or treatment.

    Just learn about it and avoid situations that would cause exposure.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sifu View Post
    Seriously, are any of the practitioners here free from experiencing phenomenon that might be hard to explain to a psychologist?
    it is definitely difficult to tell a psychologist that one understands the nature of the way... they tend to think you are crazy - then again, that is not my problem.

  14. #44
    I spoke to a Psychologist once who could not believe I understood so much about the human mind without a formal Psychology degree.

    I couldn't believe that it isn't common knowledge and that everyone doesn't understand that same stuff!

    "Know yourself, and you know the world!"

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    I spoke to a Psychologist once who could not believe I understood so much about the human mind without a formal Psychology degree.
    talking to a life-size poster of Freud hardly counts...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    I couldn't believe that it isn't common knowledge and that everyone doesn't understand that same stuff!
    all information is a lie; the truth lies with Xenu!

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    "Know yourself, and you know the world!"
    I must be a really messed up person then...

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