Literal vs Symbolic in Taoist Texts?

[DarinHamel]

The No Sex thread is getting long so I am posting this in a new one.

In "THE SAYINGS OF ANCESTOR LU" in the section on the Emergence of the Spirit is says that "the great elixer crystallizes in the form of an infant resembling oneself and then emerges from the forhead".
-THE SPIRIT OF TAO by Thomas Cleary pg 120

Many on this site say that such descriptions are symbolic. However, I have personally experienced this and would say it is not. Some have said that it was my expectations that created my experience and that it is not the rule. Once again Ancestor Lu talks about if, I achieved this on June 6th in 1994 before I read his account. I was going from the SECRET OF THE GOLDEN FLOWER and that shows a picture of the tiny body coming out of the top of the head. I thought that I had screwed up inititially. Ancestor Lu was a confirmation of my experience and not the originator.

I am not sure if I have a question or just want to make this statement. Perhaps I just want to let folks know that there are other opinions than the standard "were already enlightened" or the scholarly erudite philosopher crowds. I have always found my answers in simplicity.

I know it doesn't make any sense at all for a tiny spiritual body to emerge from the forehead. It sucks that total conservation of sexual essence is a must. But all I can do is look at my own experiences, study the ancient texts and go from there.

Rock on Ancestor Lu!

[TonyM.]

It's the freakiest scariest thing that will ever happen to you. If it does. It's not what you thinkit is. It's much more than that.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Darin,

I would like to clarify my past comments for you.

If you recall, the first thread you originated asked, what is happening, because you are not on schedule with the “signs” you have expected to experience? You wanted to know if you have done anything wrong with the actions you have performed.

I have suggested that focusing on actions alone without considering the inner (mental) transformation they are intended to cultivate is an error. The Way is not mechanistic. This is an error that Hui-Neng, the 6th patriarch or Ch’an cautioned against. On one occasion a monk approached him commenting on the thousands of times he had read and quoted aloud a particular sutra. Hui-Neng scolded the monk for blindly repeating empty words without attempting to put into practice the message the sutra taught. Words are merely empty sounds, rituals are merely empty actions. They are inherently worthless behaviors if they do not result in a change in the condition of our mind. This change will not occur if we do not perform the actions with the proper mental attitude. The key here then is not the “action”, but the “proper mental attitude”.

It seems to me, if I understand you correctly, that you believe that performing proper actions alone will bring the results you seek. This is an erroneous view. Actions that do not transform our condition of mind are empty actions. Therefore, actions must be performed with an intent and understanding that they are tools used to re-condition our mind.

The only FACT we can say we know at this point is that you have not had the next expected experience prescribed by your method. The question is why has it not occurred? You suggest it may be because you have done something wrong. I have suggested it may be because you have misunderstood the process.

I understand the experiences you have had appear to confirm your perspective. My experiences have confirmed mine as well. The question then arises, who is correct?

I don’t see it as who is correct or incorrect. Your experiences are yours and mine are mine, that is all. You wanted to know what you have done wrong. I responded with a different interpretation of the experiences you have had and the method you follow. I cannot guarantee that my perspective is correct, but I can say it is another perspective worth considering.

If the path have chosen is not providing you with the results you are seeking, then you are following the correct procedure, you are examining the process you have followed for flaws in the process. It appears from your comments however, that you are inordinately focusing on the possible incorrect performance of the actions prescribed as the sole reason for the results not occurring. I am saying it is worth considering that your interpretation and adherence to the principles you have followed may have been mistaken.

It is difficult to invest years in a path to find it does not lead where we intended to go, but at some point you must ask yourself which is more important, the goal or the path you take? If the path is not working I merely suggest you modify the path. That is not a statement regarding celibacy; it is a comment on performing actions mechanistically thinking that the mechanics of an action will make a difference. If the actions you perform do not change the condition of your mind, than they are useless. Actions are merely a means to re-condition our minds; if our minds are not re-conditioned then the results will not occur no matter what actions we perform.

If we cling to a path that is no longer useful we cannot be surprised when we have no success!

[Scott R. Brown]

Here is a story that occurred when I was a youngster. It involves having an experience that “appeared” to validate my opinion.

When I was a child, like many of us, I had friends that told me there was “NO SUCH THING AS SANTA CLAUS!!! After a period of time all of my friends believed that Santa was a hoax but me. I was the last to discover Santa was a fantasy because I believed I had solid evidence for his existence.

At the time we lived in condominiums that shared a long roof. The roof was long enough to accommodate Santa’s sleigh. On one particular Christmas morning I happened to look out the window of my bedroom and saw snow on the roof of the opposite building. The snow had gathered in a long oval clearly the shape that would occur if Santa arrived in his sleigh with reindeer. The snow, I reasoned, fell off the sleigh and the reindeer clearly leaving a long oval of snow. (I was living in Orange County, CA by the way. No snow in winter there!) So when it came to debates with my friends I was convinced Santa was real. No matter what they said they could not change my opinion because I saw tangible facts, snow where snow does not fall.

Eventually I realized that Santa was not real, but it was years later before I could account for the snow on the roof. As it turns out it was merely frost. When the sun arose, the frost melted from the edges of the roof towards the center. It left a long oval of frost. The sad thing was I was so excited at the time I mentioned what I saw to my parents and they never corrected my view. This left me with a few years of embarrassment because I misunderstood the evidence I “KNEW” I witnessed!

The moral here is that we may be absolutely convinced something is true according to our experience, but we may still be incorrect because we have misinterpreted the evidence!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The classics say: "Eye follow Hand".. "When meditating [Wuji or Zhua Zhong], focus on nose"..

"eye follows hand".. doesn't mean to look at the hand.. hand represents "doing", it means focus on your intention on what you are doing..

"Focus on nose".. where "nose" refers to "breath, not the nose literally.. focus on your nose (cross-eyed) for five minutes.. and then you'll be focusing on the headache..

The classics and the ancients used metaphor liberally.. it is that culture's way of communication.. it makes no more sense to take the ancient texts verbatim as it does to take the Bible verbatim.. short stories and metaphors elicit responses or images from common experiences that resemble experiences that the communicator wishes to convey.. Yet, if you believe that you need that level of control, the universe (Tao) will make it so.. it is much more cooperative than you know..

Be well..