Persbyterian Grappling with the language for the Trinity

[mantis108]

Can't help posting this as we were speaking of grappling with "Trinity".

By RICHARD N. OSTLING, AP Religion Writer Mon Jun 19, 3:42 PM ET

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. - The divine Trinity — "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" — could also be known as "Mother, Child and Womb" or "Rock, Redeemer, Friend" at some Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) services under an action Monday by the church's national assembly.
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Delegates to the meeting voted to "receive" a policy paper on gender-inclusive language for the Trinity, a step short of approving it. That means church officials can propose experimental liturgies with alternative phrasings for the Trinity, but congregations won't be required to use them.

"This does not alter the church's theological position, but provides an educational resource to enhance the spiritual life of our membership," legislative committee chair Nancy Olthoff, an Iowa laywoman, said during Monday's debate on the Trinity.

The assembly narrowly defeated a conservative bid to refer the paper back for further study.

A panel that worked on the issue since 2000 said the classical language for the Trinity should still be used, but added that Presbyterians also should seek "fresh ways to speak of the mystery of the triune God" to "expand the church's vocabulary of praise and wonder."

One reason is that language limited to the Father and Son "has been used to support the idea that God is male and that men are superior to women," the panel said.

Conservatives responded that the church should stick close to the way God is named in the Bible and noted that Jesus' most famous prayer was addressed to "Our Father."

Besides "Mother, Child and Womb" and "Rock, Redeemer, Friend," proposed Trinity options drawn from biblical material include:

• "Lover, Beloved, Love"

• "Creator, Savior, Sanctifier"

• "King of Glory, Prince of Peace, Spirit of Love."

Early in Monday's business session, the Presbyterian assembly sang a revised version of a familiar doxology, "Praise God from whom all blessings flow" that avoided male nouns and pronouns for God.

Youth delegate Dorothy Hill, a student at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in Massachusetts, was uncomfortable with changing the Trinity wording. She said the paper "suggests viewpoints that seem to be in tension with what our church has always held to be true about our Trinitarian God."

Hill reminded delegates that the Ten Commandments say "the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name."

The Rev. Deborah Funke of Montana warned that the paper would be "theologically confusing and divisive" at a time when the denomination of 2.3 million members faces other troublesome issues.

On Tuesday, the assembly will vote on a proposal to give local congregations and regional "presbyteries" some leeway on ordaining clergy and lay officers living in gay relationships.

Ten conservative Presbyterian groups have warned jointly that approval of what they call "local option" would "promote schism by permitting the disregard of clear standards of Scripture."

What should the proper language for the Holy Trinity be?

Mantis108

[dwid]

Burger with Fries and a Coke

[mantis108]

Burger with Fries and a Coke

Well, that's the Holy American Trinity (HAT) to the Kingdom of Obesity (KO) for sure. LOL...

Amen.

Mantis108

[fiercest tiger]

Sober, drunk, hammered!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Interesting question... Chinese would likely consider "Heaven, Earth and Man".. i like Body mind and spirit.. where body is solid representing earth, mind is man or, more appropriately, mind represents what man uses to express itself, and.. spirit represents heaven, our infinite and eternal self.. I see man as the interface between earth (physical) and heaven (spiritual)..

What many people(s) see as a separate "God", i see as One entitity expressing itself in a Universe of ways.. so each person is a unique aspect of the Whole.. The label or name by which we conceptualize the ultimate being/force/energy usually carries a bit of prejudice with it.. Tao, seems appropriate if condidered in its literal meaning, the "way" or a road.. the "way" things are, or the road we travel.. no rules, no inherent rituals, only a supremely sublime source.. Tao, the source.. consciousness, the creator.. human, the result.. but, the relationships are interchangable, man is as much the creator as trustee of his consciousness.. and consciousness is as much a result by virtue of man's influence through accumulated experiences.. the constant seems to be Tao, the source, the process itself..

The trinity, for me, represents a three legged table.. take away any one leg and the table falls.. reality or existence fails.. Almost every culture conceives a trinity relationship, an inherent aspect of self-awareness and conscious existence.. at its simplest conception, birth, life, and death it still represents a process.. so, i sense that it is dynamic relationship that unites in the process of Life..

Whew!! that made my brain itch!.. Be well..

[TonyM.]

Creator, creative intelligence and creative power.
Or, burger, fries and a coke.

[TonyM.]

It's been the McChurch since the council of Nicea or earlier.

[qiphlow]

all experience is filtered thru the mind of the one experiencing. it's important to remember this when we are looking for the appropriate term for something, as all labels are pretty much meaningless (the description of something is not the thing itself, yes?). also, when we talk about churches, we have to remember that most of our modern religious ideas come from the times when the churches had much, if not all, of the political power in society. the church leaders had to interpret the teachings in a way that not only provided some solace for the churchgoer, but also kept the power of the church intact. how long would the catholic church have lasted if they kept promoting the idea that one could get "salvation" all on one's own effort, with no need for the church to be involved?
so: regarding the "appropriate" term for the elements of the trinity--anything will do, as long as those terms hold meanig for the individual.
personally, i like the burger, fries, and a coke idea. but make mine a chicken sandwich and a diet pepsi, please. and give me extra fries with that.

[Christopher M]

also, when we talk about churches, we have to remember that most of our modern religious ideas come from the times when the churches had much, if not all, of the political power in society. the church leaders had to interpret the teachings in a way that not only provided some solace for the churchgoer, but also kept the power of the church intact. how long would the catholic church have lasted if they kept promoting the idea that one could get "salvation" all on one's own effort, with no need for the church to be involved?

Formal thought on the Trinity dates to the late second century, following Tertullian. The association of state power with the Christian church dates to the late fourth century, following the Theodosian decrees. The Catholic church dates to the eleventh century, following the Great Schism. And "our modern religious ideas" -- presuming by "our" you mean Anglo-American -- date to the sixteenth century, following the Reformation. Given all of this, your remark here seems confused.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Father.. Consciousness.. from which is born The Son..

Son...... Humanity.. the physical experience..

Spirit.... Quantum Field/Zero-Point Field.. the underlying energy source that supports it all..

Both perspectives come to a divine conclusion...

There is nothing apart from that which we are, or: "The kingdom of heaven is within".. "Have i not told you that you are Gods"..Biblical wisdom was removed in favor of heirarchal control devices.. to analyze critical meaning from the King James translation is a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack, it may be there but it is cleverly disguised..

Be well..