Why is this not Understood?

[gabe]

gabe-

then if all you do is forms and lots of bowing while thinking about how a crane would defeat a tiger, then you're not really training for the street either are you?

after all it's martial art.

Please, don't insult me. I am not one of those forms fairies strawmen tma'ers.

Nor am I going to spend much time arguing with you. I think you miss the finer points of fighting in this discussion. If I guy trains all his life to look for the pin, his muscle memory is so outstanding, his body will find that exact moment an opportunity exists and take advantage. You've got seconds to make that happen at that level of competition. You don't have that skill by screwing around with your basics a couple of hours a week. You might have good basics, but you will get your ass handed to you against an excellent grappler. Same with a boxer. Think you can jab or throw a punch? Go fight a boxer in a boxing match. Find out real quick how good your basics are. To win a boxing match, you've got to become a boxer. Same with MMA. Basics will not last you far at that level. At these levels, a punch isn't just a punch...

Every fighter is a victim of his own muscle memory.

[TenTigers]

I think what Gabe is saying about specific skills, muscle memory, etc is really the crux of the matter. I think we get into this argument toomuch and lose sight of the real facts. It's like arguing whether soccer is better or worse than rugby. The bottom line is, Pele' would lose in a rugby match unless hedeveloped the neccesary skill sets required to play at full potential, and visa versa. It becomes apple and oranges.
My Sifu said that at the highest level, it becomes anyone's game. It could be your day today, mine tomorrow. All it takes sometimes is that one shot that slipped in. You zigged when you should've zagged, and you're done.
Remember, it's not the art, but the fighter. All arts have their value, otherwise they wouldn't have survived the test of time.
Mo Lum Yat Ga.

[Pakmei7]

Interesting thread. As to the comments on balance; Pak Mei, done properly, should never lose balance.

As to the perception of the style being "jerky". That's a common observation for someone who doesn't study Pak Mei. I would suggest a better description would be "condensed".

As to flow; it depends on who you're watching and their experience, understanding, etc. Advanced students/ teachers/ masters have amazing flow. The problem is it's very unlikely you'll ever see them, especially in a video.

Cheers!

[SiuHung]

I think what Gabe is saying about specific skills, muscle memory, etc is really the crux of the matter. I think we get into this argument toomuch and lose sight of the real facts. It's like arguing whether soccer is better or worse than rugby. The bottom line is, Pele' would lose in a rugby match unless hedeveloped the neccesary skill sets required to play at full potential, and visa versa. It becomes apple and oranges.
My Sifu said that at the highest level, it becomes anyone's game. It could be your day today, mine tomorrow. All it takes sometimes is that one shot that slipped in. You zigged when you should've zagged, and you're done.
Remember, it's not the art, but the fighter. All arts have their value, otherwise they wouldn't have survived the test of time.
Mo Lum Yat Ga.

Not bad TT, this is something I can agree with.

Gabe, I'm not going to say your wrong, and I respect your choice to dissagree.

Here's how I see it:
The problem I see comes in when the "rules and equipment" card gets pulled. I may be mistaken but all CMA have their own way of addressing strikes, kicks, holds, and throwing/takedowns. Where's the problem? Usually it's with the instruction or the individual, rather than the system. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees, and hold ourselves back. Sometimes the teacher doesn't have the relevant experience to guide the student in certain situations. I can admit that I'd be completely at a loss to train someone for a competition that included ground fighting...But that's because of my own lack of experience and skill rather than the fault of a system or ruleset.
I also beleive, anyone can, and should train with equipment. It can be a great tool for learning if understood, and allows us to train in ways that might otherwise be too dangerous for regular practice. Hand conditioning and specialized hand formations are great, and both have a place in personal development as well as competition. Heck, I love the footage of Bas Rutten using some devastating palm strikes in mma matches, cool stuff!

Also, who says anything about starting off in the UFC or in a sanctioned boxing match? Start smaller. Local amatuer events. Lie Tai tournaments. Arrange friendly competitions or matches with other schools or associates. Gaining experience is the key. Lack of practical experience will stunt the development of skill. And unless people are willing to go out and get into "real fights", most of which these days involve potential use of guns, there's really not too many ways other than competition to get experience. To sum it up, I don't at all agree that to beat a boxer you have to become a boxer, nor toe beat an mma person, you have to out mma them. You do have to train hard, be aware of the weapons they use, and learn how to apply your own.

[Lam Tong Long]

Why can't chi go through a glove? And if there's a reason this is a problem, why can't you send chi through your feet, knees, or elbows?

Can you make your blood leap outside your body with just thought? No.

Then why is chi any different? And you most certainly can direct chi to any part of your body.

See people tend to think of chi as being analogous to 'electricity' or 'energy' (ie. it can 'jump a gap'), when in fact it is more accurate to liken it with something like blood. It fills the body, moves around the body in cycles and can be forced into a specific part of the body with practice.

So much like the lymphatic system (which was denied in western medicine until relatively recently) the chi system will most likely one day be acknowledged by western science (and the acknowledgement has already begun ie. acupuncture) at which point the 'mysticism' will evaporate.

Hope that helps,

Jay

[Fu-Pow]

So much like the lymphatic system (which was denied in western medicine until relatively recently)
Jay

[David Jamieson]

Please, don't insult me. I am not one of those forms fairies strawmen tma'ers.

Nor am I going to spend much time arguing with you. I think you miss the finer points of fighting in this discussion. If I guy trains all his life to look for the pin, his muscle memory is so outstanding, his body will find that exact moment an opportunity exists and take advantage. You've got seconds to make that happen at that level of competition. You don't have that skill by screwing around with your basics a couple of hours a week. You might have good basics, but you will get your ass handed to you against an excellent grappler. Same with a boxer. Think you can jab or throw a punch? Go fight a boxer in a boxing match. Find out real quick how good your basics are. To win a boxing match, you've got to become a boxer. Same with MMA. Basics will not last you far at that level. At these levels, a punch isn't just a punch...

Every fighter is a victim of his own muscle memory.

I have no idea why you take offence at what I'm saying. oh well.

[fiercest tiger]

MMA is kung fu, we have strikes kick, wretsling, throwing, takedowns, submissions, you need to learn all ranges in fighting as well weapons, etc. One must learn to adapt and stop spending too much time on forms! :P

[B-Rad]

Can you make your blood leap outside your body with just thought? No.

Then why is chi any different? And you most certainly can direct chi to any part of your body.

See people tend to think of chi as being analogous to 'electricity' or 'energy' (ie. it can 'jump a gap'), when in fact it is more accurate to liken it with something like blood. It fills the body, moves around the body in cycles and can be forced into a specific part of the body with practice.

So much like the lymphatic system (which was denied in western medicine until relatively recently) the chi system will most likely one day be acknowledged by western science (and the acknowledgement has already begun ie. acupuncture) at which point the 'mysticism' will evaporate.

Hope that helps,

Jay

Actually, I'm closer to agreeing with you than him (except maybe the "lymphatic system" part... I know zilch about medical history ). The guy who started this thread seems to think he can shoot qi into people like a weapon, and I didn't understand why using gloves would prevent him from using this ability if he had it. I was just attacking his logic a bit, and tried to show that he's just making excuses. I think there's plenty of valid reasons not to get into the ring, but I don't feel 'gloves kill qi powers' is one of them

[Lam Tong Long]

Actually, I'm closer to agreeing with you than him (except maybe the "lymphatic system" part... I know zilch about medical history ). The guy who started this thread seems to think he can shoot qi into people like a weapon, and I didn't understand why using gloves would prevent him from using this ability if he had it. I was just attacking his logic a bit, and tried to show that he's just making excuses. I think there's plenty of valid reasons not to get into the ring, but I don't feel 'gloves kill qi powers' is one of them

Hey B,

Understood and agreed for the most part. Being able to effectively strike someone PERIOD is a good level skill so small concerns about 'can I then do it with chi?' come well below in priority, IMO.

If you can hit, you can hit. That is the bottom line. The 'gloves kill chi power' thing is a an insignificant arguement. Can everyone not hit harder without gloves on????? Chi or no chi.

The only factor that detracts from SKILL in hitting when gloves are put on is the choice of hand formation. But again this is a lesser factor to actually making contact with a live opponent in a target area at full speed and power.

Jay

(Edit: The bit in bold should probably have said "Everyone, regardless of style, can inflict more damage without gloves on")

[gabe]

I have no idea why you take offence at what I'm saying. oh well.

Let me spell it out again:

"then if all you do is forms and lots of bowing while thinking about how a crane would defeat a tiger, then you're not really training for the street either are you? "

Then fiercest tiger comes and says basically the same thing. Who here says that all they do is forms? Reserve that silly assertion to the truly clueless people. Not me.

[gabe]

Not bad TT, this is something I can agree with.

Gabe, I'm not going to say your wrong, and I respect your choice to dissagree.

Here's how I see it:
The problem I see comes in when the "rules and equipment" card gets pulled. I may be mistaken but all CMA have their own way of addressing strikes, kicks, holds, and throwing/takedowns. Where's the problem? Usually it's with the instruction or the individual, rather than the system. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees, and hold ourselves back. Sometimes the teacher doesn't have the relevant experience to guide the student in certain situations. I can admit that I'd be completely at a loss to train someone for a competition that included ground fighting...But that's because of my own lack of experience and skill rather than the fault of a system or ruleset.
I also beleive, anyone can, and should train with equipment. It can be a great tool for learning if understood, and allows us to train in ways that might otherwise be too dangerous for regular practice. Hand conditioning and specialized hand formations are great, and both have a place in personal development as well as competition. Heck, I love the footage of Bas Rutten using some devastating palm strikes in mma matches, cool stuff!

Also, who says anything about starting off in the UFC or in a sanctioned boxing match? Start smaller. Local amatuer events. Lie Tai tournaments. Arrange friendly competitions or matches with other schools or associates. Gaining experience is the key. Lack of practical experience will stunt the development of skill. And unless people are willing to go out and get into "real fights", most of which these days involve potential use of guns, there's really not too many ways other than competition to get experience. To sum it up, I don't at all agree that to beat a boxer you have to become a boxer, nor toe beat an mma person, you have to out mma them. You do have to train hard, be aware of the weapons they use, and learn how to apply your own.

Hi, I'm not quite sure what your point is but I'll address just a few. Isn't the phoenix eye fist the primary weapon of mantis? Ever been hit by one of those? It really hurts. And the guy that hit me with it really made it his bread and butter. His knuckle was conditioned and he found all kinds of angles to hit me with it. One time he nailed me with it at close range when I tried to clinch and lock him up. He didn't need much room to use it and it came out of nowhere. Is that too brutal for competition? I don't know. That's not the point. The point is that he can't use it because of the gloves. So, if he decides to "adapt," he must discard.

And the things that you have to discard might very well be usefull outside the ring. And things that you end up discarding are lost simply because they don't conform to a particular ruleset, not because they are ineffective or "too brutal."

Another example. I knew guys that trained very traditional jujitsu always with a gi. They competed and won and competed some more, choking people out with their gi's. They showed me a hundred different ways to choke me out with my own jacket. Should they discard those excellent skills because people don't wear gi's in mma competition and there is nothing to grab on to? Are you more likely to face someone with a shirt or jacket on the street or someone shirtless?

Those type of skills are not just tricks you stick in your bag. They are ingrained in muscle memory or conditioning as a result of serious training and sparring. When you have literally a second to execute, you can't rely on something you trained half-ass 5 years ago for two weeks and pull it out and use it effectively. In the end it's just a decision to make on what you want to concentrate on. If it's mma, that is a very particular animal to focus on.

[David Jamieson]

Let me spell it out again:

"then if all you do is forms and lots of bowing while thinking about how a crane would defeat a tiger, then you're not really training for the street either are you? "

Then fiercest tiger comes and says basically the same thing. Who here says that all they do is forms? Reserve that silly assertion to the truly clueless people. Not me.

dude- you cherry picked my post and took it personally and then took it further out of context.

let me say this about that.

"whatever"

that was not my point and iwas indicating what are often the extremes of the spectrum and how gravitating to either extreme is NOT the way to go about it. I was not directing anything I you. I was making a case in point example and for some reason you decided I was speaking about you on particular.

If you would read the post without your presumptive idea, then you might glean something a litle different from it.

[gabe]

dude- you cherry picked my post and took it personally and then took it further out of context.

let me say this about that.

"whatever"

that was not my point and iwas indicating what are often the extremes of the spectrum and how gravitating to either extreme is NOT the way to go about it. I was not directing anything I you. I was making a case in point example and for some reason you decided I was speaking about you on particular.

If you would read the post without your presumptive idea, then you might glean something a litle different from it.

You wrote in reply to me, correct? But if it wasn't directed to me, fine. It just gets annoying with all these preachers preaching about forms. Gets old.

[Jared1211]

I think Ten Tigers and Gabe are on the same point I am. I think the disagreement is pointless because they are different sports completely. It takes more than basics to deal with an mma, boxer, grappler, etc... You are training by rules in sport fighting and in cma you are training to disable the opponent however you need to. To fight in MMA with these traditional styles you must train by the rules of the sport instead of the rules of how to hurt someone. My hands are conditioned and my pheonix eye really is something else, but in mma I can't use it properly. I would have to entirely change the forms of my attacks. Therefore a style can be adapted to be used in mma, but if I adapted and changed it it wouldn't be a traditional style anymore.