Why is this not Understood?

[SiuHung]

I think Ten Tigers and Gabe are on the same point I am. I think the disagreement is pointless because they are different sports completely. It takes more than basics to deal with an mma, boxer, grappler, etc... You are training by rules in sport fighting and in cma you are training to disable the opponent however you need to. To fight in MMA with these traditional styles you must train by the rules of the sport instead of the rules of how to hurt someone. My hands are conditioned and my pheonix eye really is something else, but in mma I can't use it properly. I would have to entirely change the forms of my attacks. Therefore a style can be adapted to be used in mma, but if I adapted and changed it it wouldn't be a traditional style anymore.

That's really sad Jared1211. How do you test your kung fu to know that it works? Can you even spar? Or is that too limiting?

We tend to fear what we don't know.

[SiuHung]

Hi, I'm not quite sure what your point is but I'll address just a few. Isn't the phoenix eye fist the primary weapon of mantis? Ever been hit by one of those? It really hurts. And the guy that hit me with it really made it his bread and butter. His knuckle was conditioned and he found all kinds of angles to hit me with it. One time he nailed me with it at close range when I tried to clinch and lock him up. He didn't need much room to use it and it came out of nowhere. Is that too brutal for competition? I don't know. That's not the point. The point is that he can't use it because of the gloves. So, if he decides to "adapt," he must discard.

Yes, I've been hit by phoenix eye. But guess what...It hurts to get hit, kicked, and otherwise struck in a variety of manners. BTW...Have you seen mma gloves lately? look them up under google. Most are open fingered so the phoenix eye could be used unfettered. If that's not good enough, I hope you live somewhere warm, because no one's going to wait for you to take off your mittens in the winter

It boils down to this: To be good with your kung fu, you should be able to employ it against all types of opponents and situations. Short of fighting in "the street" something like mma is the closest you're going to get to a real fight. And if you're going to fight in "the street" bring a weapon, some friends, and be prepared to go to jail.

[Jared1211]

I don't know how most people train it, but we train our slicing and everything with an open hand. In training and sparring you can, but if I really were fighting someone I would do the exact same thing with the phoenix eye instead. It's pretty simple really. If you really want to fight someone it's a far different situation. If we get in really close like you're grappling or wrapping up you are open to the phoenix eye in a nasty second or two.

[ronro]

But how can you be sure you phoenix eye is so effective?

Wouldn't it be a good idea to train for some MMA comps and find out if you can really make it work? With todays small gloves you could use the PE fist.

[David Jamieson]

guys. there are people posturing that they have a technique that's too big, too fabulous and too deadly to be used in a sportive combative match.

there's people here saying that they cannot adpat their kungfu to a sportive venue to demonstrate it in a safe environment that takes you as close to a real fight as possible.

these same people admit they do not train these deadly moves as they are meant to be applied I.E: killing moves.

Kungfu is flexible and adaptable. Any decent set of tactics can be demonstrated without killing someone and it can be done in a sportive way.

I think there's just a beef with the "put up or shut up" line of thiunking that is thrown at them. IE : if your kungfu is so hot why isn't it winning the ufc.

I think that line of thinking just irks some martial artists for whatever reason.

Probably because it's meant to be provocative.

[gabe]

[whoops. doh.

[gabe]

Yes, I've been hit by phoenix eye. But guess what...It hurts to get hit, kicked, and otherwise struck in a variety of manners. BTW...Have you seen mma gloves lately? look them up under google. Most are open fingered so the phoenix eye could be used unfettered. If that's not good enough, I hope you live somewhere warm, because no one's going to wait for you to take off your mittens in the winter

It boils down to this: To be good with your kung fu, you should be able to employ it against all types of opponents and situations. Short of fighting in "the street" something like mma is the closest you're going to get to a real fight. And if you're going to fight in "the street" bring a weapon, some friends, and be prepared to go to jail.

Yeah, it hurts to get hit, kicked, etc. What's your point? It also sucks to get choked out from your jacket. There are a "variety of manners" that aren't appropriate for MMA that work just dandy on the street. And those gloves restrict the wrist. I'm assuming you don't know anything about using the phoenix eye fist or you'd see that.

No, it boils down to this. You only need a few things to be great fighter. Most great fighters have their bread and butter and make it work no matter what your game is. Maybe it is appropriate for the ring but in some cases, they are not. And the ring is not the closet thing. As I said, someone who specializes in gi chokes has no place in the ring although he may do all kinds of pressure testing outside the ring. You face him on the street, and you may have a serious problem with his bread and butter. Especially, if all you do is ring training, cuz you haven't seen it before. There is a whole world outside the ring that DOES involve pressure testing. Why do you assume their isn't? Are you seriously going to criticize someone who has choked out a ton of people on the street with their jacket but can't win a UFC match since his instincts and muscle memory is now a hindrance?

The argument that if you do this, you should be able to do that really trivializes so many high level arts. Should an outstanding wrestler win BJJ tournaments? Why not? Why does he keep pinning his opponent and then hesitate looking confused? Does that mean the wrestler can't fight? Wrestling is an art. BJJ is an art. Sure there is overlap. And then there are major differences and a great deal of muscle memory you need to discard if you change your agenda. That wrestler needs to stop looking for the pin. If he's been wrestling all his life, do you think that muscle memory just goes away?

Yeah, MMA'sts, tons of karate, kung fu people can all jab, hook and uppercut. Which one of them, even the most experienced, can enter a professional boxing match against an excellent boxer? A punch aint just a punch. Go ahead, take a couple of years and "adapt." Maybe you're exceptional and your few months or years will make you competitive against a boxer who's done it since he was a little teenage gymrat, in his ring under his rules.

No, these debates are not about "too deadly" or not traditional. It's about what you choose to train for, what tools you pick, and who you pressure test against. If you're not training for MMA, the test is not whether you can make it work in the ring. It's whether you can make it work outside the ring. If a MMAist or a grappler or a boxer walks into your school, yeah, you better be able to make that phoenix eye work if you claim that as your weapon. Or your gi choke. Or whatever you choose. You better have pressure tested the heck out of whatever game you choose to develop.

[SevenStar]

I want to know why so many martial artists of hard styles don't understand why Southern Mantis can't be used in it's traditional way. It is understood to me why this is. I'm asking why they can't understand this. It is simply because we are using our hands in ways you can't in MMA. They say it is useless not to be able to use it for trophies. I wish it would be understood that I don't get a belt or trophies in SPM, but it is far from useless. The style uses Chi and they can't develop Chi through a glove can they?

1. why can't many tma understand the mma can be just as deadly on the street as tma?

2. why do tma think we don't understand you use your hands differently? we understand just fine.

3. anyone who thinks competition is all about trophies doesn't really understand competition.

4. why can't people in general understand that live practice is necessary for the development of skill and that forms and two man drills aren't enough?

4. I would argue the you can issue qi through a glove. If you can't, is your qi then also useless against a person with really thick clothing, or layers of fat?

[SevenStar]

I don't know how most people train it, but we train our slicing and everything with an open hand. In training and sparring you can, but if I really were fighting someone I would do the exact same thing with the phoenix eye instead. It's pretty simple really. If you really want to fight someone it's a far different situation. If we get in really close like you're grappling or wrapping up you are open to the phoenix eye in a nasty second or two.

you really don't know that you would. Remember, you fight how you train. chances are, you wouldn't use the phoenix eye.

[Jared1211]

Now what you're doing is changing my words around. Did I say one time that my style was too bad for MMA? No, I am not training my style for MMA. It's as simple as that. Not because I'm afraid or that it is too bad for tournaments. Simply because I am taking martial arts. Not for tournaments but for self defense and my love for martial arts. Get your facts straight before you point your finger and say I said something that I didn't. A fighter efficient in SPM could fight in MMA, more power to him if he does, but I'm not.

On the other note. Yes, I would do it in a normal fight because I'm doing the same thing I would with my open hand, but I change the shape of my hand and that's all. If anyone here knows about the phoenix eye they know they train it over and over and over again. It gets really effective.

[Lam Tong Long]

1. why can't many tma understand the mma can be just as deadly on the street as tma?

2. why do tma think we don't understand you use your hands differently? we understand just fine.

3. anyone who thinks competition is all about trophies doesn't really understand competition.

4. why can't people in general understand that live practice is necessary for the development of skill and that forms and two man drills aren't enough?

5. I would argue the you can issue qi through a glove. If you can't, is your qi then also useless against a person with really thick clothing, or layers of fat?

1. Some do...

2. Some do...

3. Some don't...

4. Some do...usually the ones that can make it work....

5. Chi isn't really about putting anything INTO anything external. When you strike with chi power it's like condensing that energy into your fist (for eg) to make you hand harder and therefore inflict more damage. You can still do this with a glove on but the chi doesn't 'pass thru' it. When people talking about hitting with 'chi' (ie passing chi into someone elses body) they are probably talking about the effects that are associated with using chi to perform a strike with great 'ging'.
Or they are jokers with fantasy powers......

[gabe]

you really don't know that you would. Remember, you fight how you train. chances are, you wouldn't use the phoenix eye.

Actually, you wouldn't use it in a real fight. Because you don't train it.

What makes you think if you do train it, you can't use it? And when I say train, I don't mean forms so don't bother with that line.

[gabe]

1. why can't many tma understand the mma can be just as deadly on the street as tma?

2. why do tma think we don't understand you use your hands differently? we understand just fine.

3. anyone who thinks competition is all about trophies doesn't really understand competition.

4. why can't people in general understand that live practice is necessary for the development of skill and that forms and two man drills aren't enough?

4. I would argue the you can issue qi through a glove. If you can't, is your qi then also useless against a person with really thick clothing, or layers of fat?

Why do people love to use strawmen?

Anything can be deadly on the street.

If you understood that some use their hands differently, you wouldn't be expecting them to perform with the same equipment you do. If someone develops a high level of skill with a gun, why should they be able to enter an archery contest. Are you going to try to lecture on the overlap between those skills? Or which is more effective on the street?

You use what you train, right? Why do you expect people to use what you train, and not what they train?

[ronro]

How are you pressure testing your phoenix eye fist if you don't use it in sparring?

How do you know it even works at against a trained person? Aren't you interested in finding out if this stuff is real?

[gabe]

How are you pressure testing your phoenix eye fist if you don't use it in sparring?

How do you know it even works at against a trained person? Aren't you interested in finding out if this stuff is real?

What are you smoking? Who said I don't use it in sparring? How the hell else are you supposed to train it?

You use gear and hit them as hard as you like with your phoenix eye fist. Your opponent can come at you as hard as they like and you can hit them as hard as you like. If you care to, you don't need too much creativity to train something you want to do.

You need to read the threads more closely. Nobody is disagreeing with the notion that if you don't train with as much restistance and freestyle possible, you won't get it. And if you're going to say in your next strawman point that we only spar people within our own art, you're wrong again. Of course you have to work against as many different people as you can- that goes for tma or mma. You find people of both categories who only fight people with arts they are comfortable with.