What is MMA'S Impact on Kung-Fu Should MMA be its' on Art Now?

[jstreet]

How has MMA changed or impacted Kung-Fu? There is no denying the impact UFC has had on the Martial Arts World. More and more schools offer multiple styles. I know you will have traditionalists and revisionists argue these points, but MMA has its place in the Martial Arts world, for now anyway. Does it have staying power? Should it now be it's own Art? Your thoughts?

[Ray Pina]

MMA has pushed me to get better .... it should push every MA to get better. Now there is a venue to test all ranges of combat. Before I had an interest in fighting MMAists, I was content to have what I thought was good striking, thought I couldn't be taken down.

Now I know better.

I don't think you need to train MMA, but I think you need to train whatever you train as realistically as possible against all ranges of fighting.


MMA as it's own style? I think it has already become that. The only down side is when you don't specialize, you can be pretty good at ground, pretty good and striking, pretty good at kicking. I think MMA is best when someone already has a strong background in either wrestling, BJJ or a striking art. But to start fresh, I would think it would take more time then many want to put it or expect. 3 year MMA are well rounded, but no one weapon is razor sharp. But that can go for any style I guess.

[MasterKiller]

MMA is training format...a set of rules; not a style.

Kung Fu can (and should) be trained like MMA. My kung fu has progressed tremendously over the last 18 months since I started training MMA fulltime.

[MasterKiller]

The only down side is when you don't specialize, you can be pretty good at ground, pretty good and striking, pretty good at kicking.

I would argue that CMA has always been about this...a little bit of striking, a little bit of throwing, a little bit of wrestling. I think it tries to produce a more well-rounded fighter when compared to other traditional arts.

[Ray Pina]

I would argue that CMA has always been about this...a little bit of striking, a little bit of throwing, a little bit of wrestling. I think it tries to produce a more well-rounded fighter when compared to other traditional arts.

Then where are all the kung fu fighters?

[David Jamieson]

Then where are all the kung fu fighters?

You're saying that some mma guys haven't trained in kungfu? or karate? or any number of other things.

mma is getting to a point where because of the venue, training methods are aligning to work towards competition in the venue.

where's all the mma guys at kungfu tourneys is basically the other side of that coin.

besides ray, don't you call yourself a kungfu fighter?Aren't you looking for some mma action on a regular basis?

mma is not what you train, it's how you train, it's "mixed martial arts" and there's a few guys on the circuit who have trained in traditinal martial arts.

so "where's teh kungfu fighters" is moot.

[Ray Pina]

I think all good fighters focus more on the HOW than the WHAT.

Everyone can shoot, but serious fighters focus on how they shoot, the precision. Everyone can punch. I don't train punching the bag or the air nearlrly as much as I train coordinating my movement so my punched come from driving off the foot.

I agree that MMA is a set of rules on one hand, but I think we're fooling ourselves if we deny MMA for the most part means some form of grappling (grecco, BJJ, etc.) + Thai kicking + boxing.

I also think we'd be fooling ourselves if we really don't know why MMA's don't come to Kung Fu tournaments.... if you don't know, I'll be the bearer of bad news: they think we're a joke... and our rules won't allow them to fight the way they train to fight.

Now I know you can argue the same, that they won't let you poke their eye, etc. etc. But inside you don't need me to explain the difference... that Kung Fu won't even let them punch their nose, take them down. Forget about dirty tactics. Even my niece knows kicking me in the balls hurt.

I don't mean to come down hard on Kung Fu. I love Kung Fu. But if it's to become something we need to stop the self denial. We have to look at ourselves in the mirror and say, "we're fat." .... it's not the mirror and we don't have a glandular problem.

[SiuHung]

How has MMA changed or impacted Kung-Fu? There is no denying the impact UFC has had on the Martial Arts World. More and more schools offer multiple styles. I know you will have traditionalists and revisionists argue these points, but MMA has its place in the Martial Arts world, for now anyway. Does it have staying power? Should it now be it's own Art? Your thoughts?

How has mma impacted kung fu? Haha, well, it's revealed a lot of baloney. It's going to keep getting harder and harder to find students willing to believe how deadly and dangerous thier non-fighting teacher's kung fu is.
Seriously, now that UFC is on Spike TV, like it or not, mma is going to be brought to a much wider audience. The next few generations of martial arts wannabes is going to look to mma, and unless kung fu gets in the mix on a much larger scale than a few individuals, it's going to continue to die its slow death.

Mma certainly does have staying power as well. Boxing is rapidly losing its audience. Kickboxing has a small following in the US, and there seems to be more crossover of fighters from sports such as muay thai and wrestling into mma...because they know that's where the future is.

I'm saying all this as a "traditional CMA guy". The kung fu community in general just doesn't have the relevant experience to prepare a fighter for professional level mma. There may be a few exceptions of course, but these are few and far between.
On a positive note, I've heard more rumblings as of late, and noticed more interest in competitive CMA based fighting such as lei tai, sanshou, sanda, etc...Hopefully, this will snowball into bigger and better things. Otherwise, the naysayers who staunchly declare that kung fu can't be used in a ring will drive the final nails into the kung fu coffin.

[Fu-Pow]

The next few generations of martial arts wannabes is going to look to mma, and unless kung fu gets in the mix on a much larger scale than a few individuals, it's going to continue to die its slow death.

I don't really see kung fu dying a "slow death", I'd venture to guess there are more kung fu practitioners worldwide than "mixed martial artists."

Mma certainly does have staying power as well. Boxing is rapidly losing its audience. Kickboxing has a small following in the US, and there seems to be more crossover of fighters from sports such as muay thai and wrestling into mma...because they know that's where the future is.

As a venue or as an art?

I'm saying all this as a "traditional CMA guy". The kung fu community in general just doesn't have the relevant experience to prepare a fighter for professional level mma. There may be a few exceptions of course, but these are few and far between.

I think that you have a point there as far as experience in that venue. I think we need to carefully make the distinction between MMA as a venue and MMA as a style. I don't see any reason that kung fu practitioners can't compete in a MMA venue if they are good enough. Is the MMA "style" the best (ie boxing, muy thai and bjj)....I don't think so...I think it depends as much on the practitioner as the "style." Kung fu is going to be at a big disadvantage in the MMA venue because most don't train to fight on the ground.

If kung fu players are able to use their full arsenal of joint manipulation then it might not need to go there. Alternatively, a kung fu guy could cross-train in ground fighting.

On a positive note, I've heard more rumblings as of late, and noticed more interest in competitive CMA based fighting such as lei tai, sanshou, sanda, etc...Hopefully, this will snowball into bigger and better things. Otherwise, the naysayers who staunchly declare that kung fu can't be used in a ring will drive the final nails into the kung fu coffin.

I think that the preferred combat sport of kung fu will be san da/san shou where ground fighting is not allowed and joint manipulation is not allowed. This allows the fullest range of techniques from kung fu to be utilized and insures that the practioners will be able to actually function in real life after fighting.

IMO, some of the most effective self-defense techniques in kung fu involve joint manipulation. Some styles are built almost entirely around it. However, because of the permanent damage that this type of fighting can cause it cannot and should not be part of a combat sport.

Why is groundfighting not part of kung fu? I think that there is a historical basis for this. Many traditional styles of kung fu were "battlefield" types of art, if you went down on the ground you were pretty much done for. If you tried to fight your opponent on the ground you would get a spear in your back or a horse trampling on your head.

However, I don't see any reason that somebody couldn't cross train there stand up kung fu game and groundfighting and do well in a MMA event.

[FatherDog]

Kung fu is going to be at a big disadvantage in the MMA venue because most don't train to fight on the ground.

In a country where 20% or so of adult males wrestled at least in high school, and over half played football, not training at all what to do if someone tackles you puts you at a big disadvantage in more than just MMA venues.

If kung fu players are able to use their full arsenal of joint manipulation then it might not need to go there.

I think that the preferred combat sport of kung fu will be san da/san shou where ground fighting is not allowed and joint manipulation is not allowed. This allows the fullest range of techniques from kung fu to be utilized

What?

Why is groundfighting not part of kung fu? I think that there is a historical basis for this. Many traditional styles of kung fu were "battlefield" types of art, if you went down on the ground you were pretty much done for. If you tried to fight your opponent on the ground you would get a spear in your back or a horse trampling on your head.

Funny how Judo groundfighting techniques came from jujitsu, which is historically verifiable as a "battlefield" art.

[Fu-Pow]

In a country where 20% or so of adult males wrestled at least in high school, and over half played football, not training at all what to do if someone tackles you puts you at a big disadvantage in more than just MMA venues.

Not really.

Funny how Judo groundfighting techniques came from jujitsu, which is historically verifiable as a "battlefield" art.

I'm not talking about Japanese arts. Funny how there are like 300 styles of kung fu and very few of them have ANY groundfighting. Now why do you suppose that is?

[Royal Dragon]

is the total lack of weight training in most CMA.

Reply]
All Chinese arts have some sort of sport specific weight training, be it the stone locks, or the Taiji ball. That should be revived inour practice. No need to add modern weight lifting, we already have what we need.

[FatherDog]

Not really.

Yes, really.

I'm not talking about Japanese arts. Funny how there are like 300 styles of kung fu and very few of them have ANY groundfighting. Now why do you suppose that is?

I don't know, but since Jujitsu and Sambo, two of the major groundfighting arts are historically proveable to be "battlefield arts", I doubt very much that it's because kung fu is "for the battlefield".

[Knifefighter]

Funny how there are like 300 styles of kung fu and very few of them have ANY groundfighting. Now why do you suppose that is?

Because they are striking styles. Striking styles usually don't have groundfighting. Only grappling styles have groundfighting.

For whatever reason, combative sytems have traditionally gravitated towards either striking or grappling. Striking styles generally don't have grappling and groundfighting, and grappling styles don't generally have striking.

MMA is the only system that contains all the elements of striking, grappling and groundfighting.

[Knifefighter]

It's going to keep getting harder and harder to find students willing to believe how deadly and dangerous thier non-fighting teacher's kung fu is.

Not really. There will always be students who don't want to train full out against resisting opponents. These students are easily impressed by their instructors "root" and "power" when he demonstrates techniques on them while they are compliant in the the perfect position for him to perform his "brutal" techniques. They will probably never know that said instructor can't actually pull those techniques off against someone who has a clue.