What is MMA'S Impact on Kung-Fu Should MMA be its' on Art Now?

[Royal Dragon]

Originally Posted by Fu-Pow
you just can't practice chin na under pressure without somebody getting hurt.

And there's the key as to why it doesn't work.

Reply]
I think in ancient times, these things were pressure tested in real fights where people got miamed. So those who were good at them, got really good at them, and those who weren't became crippled, or died of comlications to thier injuries. We just don't have those conditions here in this day and age, so we really can't get skilled at them. We can't take the final step to reality.

[fiercest tiger]

Kung Fu is MMA, its how you learn and training your kung fu....most people just do friggin forms and then believe they can beat people up!!

lol

[Fu-Pow]

Originally Posted by Fu-Pow
you just can't practice chin na under pressure without somebody getting hurt.

And there's the key as to why it doesn't work.

Reply]
I think in ancient times, these things were pressure tested in real fights where people got miamed. So those who were good at them, got really good at them, and those who weren't became crippled, or died of comlications to thier injuries. We just don't have those conditions here in this day and age, so we really can't get skilled at them. We can't take the final step to reality.

I don't think that you could get in enough fights to make that a practice regimen.

Well maybe some people could.

[SiuHung]

Originally Posted by Fu-Pow
you just can't practice chin na under pressure without somebody getting hurt.

And there's the key as to why it doesn't work.

Reply]
I think in ancient times, these things were pressure tested in real fights where people got miamed. So those who were good at them, got really good at them, and those who weren't became crippled, or died of comlications to thier injuries. We just don't have those conditions here in this day and age, so we really can't get skilled at them. We can't take the final step to reality.

Chin Na is always best as a response in a self defense situation where you are attacked, especially when the attack is a grab or immobilization technique or as a disarming move. In a fight...i.e. when two or more people choose to square off and attack eachother, such as in a ring, it's extremely difficult to use. The exception is the clinch, which in essence is a "sieze and hold" or chin na. Most systems, IMO address the clinch. Notice, I say most systems, not most teachers! Also, many teachers will spout off b.s. such as kung fu being for self defense. It was designed for fighting, self defense is a by product.

As for ground fighting...why wouldn't you want to know at least some basic survival ground fighting? A good number if mma fights are won on the feet, by fighters who've learned to avoid the takedown, or how to get back up fast. On the other hand, if you can take someone down, expect at some point to go down with them...better know how to finish it there.

[BlueTravesty]

Yeah, I think we as CMAists should start resolving to learn basic groundfighting. We're making "MMA-as-a-style" types waste so much time pointing out this valid oversight in kung fu training that they don't have as much time to criticize the other aspects of Kung Fu that tick them off, but aren't relevant to anything, such as:

Many Chinese Style Techniques Have Flowery Names (not relevant to their use in fighting, but for some reason MMA guys/gals tend to think they're onto something important when they point this out.)

The History of Many Styles is Highly Suspect If Not An Outright Lie (true for the most part, perhaps, but not relevant to their validity in fighting or lack thereof.)

CMAists May Say That They Use Low Kicks But They Practice Both High And Low (ignores the fact that the ability to balance properly when delivering high kicks is very helpful in just about every aspect of fighting, including low kicks.)

CMA Uses Bodyweight Training For The Legs Instead Of Using Weights Exclusively (ignoring the fact that One-Legged squats and stance transitions are VERY efficient for developing strength, balance, flexibility, and stability.)

Horse Stance: Is It Really Necessary? ("surrre, I COULD hold a horse stance, like forever, but, uhmmmm... I don't want to. yeah, it's silly! Or something...")

CMA Likes to do their techniques without an opponent (a.k.a- "In the air" a.k.a "Shadowboxing." a.k.a "Memorization Drills.") AND do them against resisting opponents instead of just doing them against resisting opponents
(OK look, if you take two people and give them a technique they have no idea how to do or use and tell them to use it on each other, all you get is bad technique and bloody noses- not rocket science.)

All TCMA and TMA in General Suffers From Massive Amounts of Ego and Arrogance
(Hello there, Pot! I'd like to introduce you to my good friend Kettle...)

All kidding aside, one other valid point most MMA-As-Style people have is the total lack of weight training in most CMA. It's important to develop a good core first, of course, but weight training (whether Olympic, Power Lifts, or Strongman [I really hope to get into this someday]) is unmatched for developing raw strength. Bodyweight excercises, calisthenics, etc. are still better for endurance however.

[FatherDog]

Kung fu is going to be at a big disadvantage in the MMA venue because most don't train to fight on the ground.

In a country where 20% or so of adult males wrestled at least in high school, and over half played football, not training at all what to do if someone tackles you puts you at a big disadvantage in more than just MMA venues.

If kung fu players are able to use their full arsenal of joint manipulation then it might not need to go there.

I think that the preferred combat sport of kung fu will be san da/san shou where ground fighting is not allowed and joint manipulation is not allowed. This allows the fullest range of techniques from kung fu to be utilized

What?

Why is groundfighting not part of kung fu? I think that there is a historical basis for this. Many traditional styles of kung fu were "battlefield" types of art, if you went down on the ground you were pretty much done for. If you tried to fight your opponent on the ground you would get a spear in your back or a horse trampling on your head.

Funny how Judo groundfighting techniques came from jujitsu, which is historically verifiable as a "battlefield" art.

[Fu-Pow]

In a country where 20% or so of adult males wrestled at least in high school, and over half played football, not training at all what to do if someone tackles you puts you at a big disadvantage in more than just MMA venues.

Not really.

Funny how Judo groundfighting techniques came from jujitsu, which is historically verifiable as a "battlefield" art.

I'm not talking about Japanese arts. Funny how there are like 300 styles of kung fu and very few of them have ANY groundfighting. Now why do you suppose that is?

[Royal Dragon]

is the total lack of weight training in most CMA.

Reply]
All Chinese arts have some sort of sport specific weight training, be it the stone locks, or the Taiji ball. That should be revived inour practice. No need to add modern weight lifting, we already have what we need.

[FatherDog]

Not really.

Yes, really.

I'm not talking about Japanese arts. Funny how there are like 300 styles of kung fu and very few of them have ANY groundfighting. Now why do you suppose that is?

I don't know, but since Jujitsu and Sambo, two of the major groundfighting arts are historically proveable to be "battlefield arts", I doubt very much that it's because kung fu is "for the battlefield".

[neilhytholt]

Originally Posted by Fu-Pow
you just can't practice chin na under pressure without somebody getting hurt.

And there's the key as to why it doesn't work.

Reply]
I think in ancient times, these things were pressure tested in real fights where people got miamed. So those who were good at them, got really good at them, and those who weren't became crippled, or died of comlications to thier injuries. We just don't have those conditions here in this day and age, so we really can't get skilled at them. We can't take the final step to reality.

Yeah if you read the surgeons manuals for example of the Romans, they learned an awful lot from the fights with gladiators. People got extremely messed up.

In wars, for example, Vietnam and Iraq, they learned an awful lot about battlefield medicine. The mortality rate is extremely reduced now because of what they learned in Iraq.

Of course, they haven't learned to how really heal people and make them grow new limbs and stuff, so it's not all good.

Anyways, why complain about the lack of practicing Chin-Na or stuff like that? In MMA they fight to tap-out, a tap-out is a potential maiming situation, so they got to practice their stuff.

I used to complain about MMA not using realistic techniques, but let's face it, if you can't make MMA techniques work it's doubtful you'd be able to get your other techniques to work under pressure either.

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Royal dragon,

My YKM system of internal shaolin is based off the metal, stone and wooden spheres. Too bad not many other arts utilise this great training tool look at boxers and fitness they also now use the medicine ball for workouts but its been in ykm for over 1000yrs and at shaolin.

Ultimate strength training tool!

GARRY

[Fu-Pow]

Yes, really.

No, not really.

I don't know, but since Jujitsu and Sambo, two of the major groundfighting arts are historically proveable to be "battlefield arts", I doubt very much that it's because kung fu is "for the battlefield".

Then what was it created for?

[neilhytholt]

No, not really.




Then what was it created for?

The reason CMA doesn't focus on groundfighting is because while you're sitting on the ground with somebody, the other person is kicking you in the head.

They realized long ago that you rarely have the luxury of fighting just one opponent.

[sir-elrik]

MMA is a trend, people sees fighters with briliant stamina that are able to get a enormous amount of hits and to counter-attack. unfortunatelly we are not all so naturally gifted neither we have the time to invest in so many styles.

I would luv to see a disent kung fu fighters gets in MMA. But to get in MMA u hv to train to get there and that training is quite different from what we general do. san shou-sanda its the more applicable for such an event but with addition of how to escape from grapling techniques.

It will b clever the chinese super duber san shou national team to send someone in MMA.

[Fu-Pow]

I like your name sir-elrick.