Kung Fu and Muay Boran

[Kellen Bassette]

I was wondering if anyone new of a historical connection between TCMA and Muay Boran; and the other Muay Styles and "native" Indo/Chinese arts.

The reason I ask is from what I've seen of Muay Boran (ancient Muay Thai),forms and training methods, it seems to look an awful lot like southern Kung Fu. It's hard to say what's authentic or not with Muay Boran, but that same problem has existed in the Chinese arts as well.

The two main schools of thought as to the origins of Muay Thai, from what I gather on the web, is 1. Muay Thai was developed to defend against Kung Fu, from invasions from China; and Burma; 2. What would become Muay Boran, along with several other Indo/Chinese arts, migrated south out of China, with minority ethnic groups.

I highly suspect the second theory to be closer to the truth. I wonder is there any documentation to support this? Thailand knows very little about the history of their own art; and I very much doubt as the Thais would admit to it having roots in China anyway, but what they do know about their boxing history comes from records from Burma and other neighboring countries, as the Thai temples were supposedly burned. (Again, not unlike the Chinese stories.)

Just throwing this out there to see what your thoughts are!

[LivingArt]

Its honestly a mess history wise. Some scholars believe that muay thai was adopted from burma and evolved in thailand. There's definitely more than just a possibility that it was influenced by kung fu, though. But i wouldnt go any further than influenced, it definitely is a unique art with unique origins.

[natb19]

Interesting question and interesting responses...

I think this is a two fold answer (to simplify!) based on origins and then modern evolution of the muay boran arts.

I think that Andy is right in that the influence in the style historically is more from the indian hindu/budhist rather than chinese. All of the old styles of Muay Thai share the same set of fundamental and advanced moves, with the technique names being carried across styles - the main intention of the techniques remaining the same, but the execution differing dependant on fundamentals of the style itself.

However, recent evolution of the styles (from potentially a central source) individually are difficult to track because of the unreliable recording of events, conflicting views etc (which are not just here in Thailand!).

I study and teach Muay Chaiya, which is one of the last surviving styles of Muay Boran the history of this can only be confirmed back to the routes of the Thai Royal bodyguard. The founder of the style left the military and moved to a southern part of the country and this is where the style was founded.

Two generations on, the main purveyor of the style (my masters master) learnt from 13 different teachers of fighting arts, some of which were influenced by chinese kung fu. From this, it's hard to say how much of the muay style was influenced by the different styles of fighting that he had learnt. Maybe much, maybe not so much. Again, difficult to say.

It was only yesterday, I was demonstrating a 'punch' of Muay Chaiya with a very learned friend, and he made the association with Bok Sao (sorry I know little of wing chun or tai chi).

Remember, each of the old styles of Muay Thai have very different fundamentals; stance, guard, movement and underlying strategy, but still share the same heritage of movements which were influenced by the religion and mythology.

[Kevin73]

I think it all boils down to one thing. There are only so many ways to strike and grapple. There may be minor differences in them and slightly different ways of doing things as time goes on and one group specializes in a certain method.

But, all of the empty hand arts came from hand to hand fighting, they will bear more similarities than differences. You can find every western boxing technique in kung fu/karate, but HOW they are employed is different.

Now add in certain cultural similiarties in that area and how things are grouped etc. and again you will find a lot of commonalities. I recently came across a theory that stated okinawan karate was influenced just as much by Siamese boxing as it was the chinese boxing. Truth is, no one really knows and we never really will.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Andy Miles;1187237]

Indian martial arts were first documented in the 11th century. That doesn't mean that they aren't older than this.

What remains of Indian martial arts is in SE Asia. Elephant use, Hindu influence etc. I see SE Asia as more of a cultural extension of India than of China.

------------------------------------------------
Indian martial arts are as old as the hills........long long before the 11th century. The epics Mahabharata and Ramayana are full of martial stories of kusti, archery, clubs and the exercise routines are also much much older than the 11th century.
As part of princely training, the Buddha before buddhahood had to practice archery. And, archery
and martial exercise was part of the curriculum of Nalanda Buddhist university. It would take a book to discuss all this.

[Kellen Bassette]

I'm glad to see the mention of Indian martial arts, I know very little about them...and if, as the story goes, they were the root of Chinese Martial Arts, where are they, what happened to them?

I don't seem to find much information on Indian M.A. outside of a few folk styles...were there ever, or is there still, complicated, systematic styles of traditional Indian arts? It seems if Shaolin, and all the complex systems that came out of Shaolin, were developed from Indian origin, we would see complex systematic arts from India...or is this phenomenon more a product of Chinese culture than the original techniques?

natb19....

Do you currently live in Thailand? My wife is from Nahkon Sawan Province and I would love to find someone who teaches the old muay styles when I'm staying in Thailand. There's no shortage of people teaching modern Muay Thai; and I certainly look forward to training with them, but it seems very difficult to find any instructors of ancient boxing.

From what I gather as a clueless farang, the Thais seem to have a very high opinion of their traditional arts; I may be off base, but I don't think there's really any contempt for tradition among the Thai fighters, as there seems to be to often in the western MMA community....

With Muay Boran becoming more known to the west, mostly thanks to Tony Jaa, there's no doubt we'll see more and more schools capitalizing on the name and teaching crap, watered down Muay Thai, passing it off as Muay Boran....but I guess there's already enough fake MT here in the U.S. at thousands of MMA schools and Dojos claiming to teach it for their kick boxing program, because it's popular at the moment...

[Faruq]

To answer this question we have to ask where animal style originated. India had them. Did Chinese martial arts have them prior to Shaolin/Buddhist influence?

The first recorded use of anesthesia was by Hua To who taught his patients five animal qi gong around 140-208ce. The five animals represent the organs of the body.

Indian martial arts were first documented in the 11th century. That doesn't mean that they aren't older than this.

What remains of Indian martial arts is in SE Asia. Elephant use, Hindu influence etc. I see SE Asia as more of a cultural extension of India than of China.

Chinese arts were fist documented in 5th century BC.

China has the oldest recorded description of martial arts. India has a larger cultural influence on SE Asia. I don't know the answer, but I hope this furthers the discussion.

I could've sworn I read that the Hindu arts of Indonesia generally called Pencak Silat trace their roots back to India. And then more recently there was an influx of Chinese martial influence like in the case of Mustaka Kwitang for example if you were to Google it. Or maybe it's Mustika Kwitang, I'm not sure.

[Faruq]

I'm glad to see the mention of Indian martial arts, I know very little about them...and if, as the story goes, they were the root of Chinese Martial Arts, where are they, what happened to them?

I don't seem to find much information on Indian M.A. outside of a few folk styles...were there ever, or is there still, complicated, systematic styles of traditional Indian arts? It seems if Shaolin, and all the complex systems that came out of Shaolin, were developed from Indian origin, we would see complex systematic arts from India...or is this phenomenon more a product of Chinese culture than the original techniques?.

Now that's interesting, because I had always heard that the Chinese martial arts were a Chinese creation, but the tendon changing classic that the Indian Boddhidarma meditated up and gave the Shaolin monks was what took their martial arts to that insane level of incredibleness. Well, I've been wrong before

[Lucas]

I would say that indian martial arts influenced chinese martial arts via shaolin through damo. ive read before, dont know if its true or not, that damo was a prince before becoming a buddhist monk, so it would stand to reason he had martial training in addition to yoga and other meditative practices as a young man. its difficult since those 'histories' are largely legend and clouded by time.

however if thats true, it would make sense that his previous training would be the foundation for anything martial

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would say that indian martial arts influenced chinese martial arts via shaolin through damo. ive read before, dont know if its true or not, that damo was a prince before becoming a buddhist monk, so it would stand to reason he had martial training in addition to yoga and other meditative practices as a young man. its difficult since those 'histories' are largely legend and clouded by time.

however if thats true, it would make sense that his previous training would be the foundation for anything martial

I find it far more plausible that, just like now, people that happen to have been MA ( former solders perhaps) traveled and immigrated and saw and learned the MA from other places or brought their own and shared it.
Sure an individual or another may have been more prominent, but I doubt that any one person could SOLELY be responsible for something like that.

[Lucas]

I find it far more plausible that, just like now, people that happen to have been MA ( former solders perhaps) traveled and immigrated and saw and learned the MA from other places or brought their own and shared it.
Sure an individual or another may have been more prominent, but I doubt that any one person could SOLELY be responsible for something like that.

that certainly would make sense. in shaolin's case specifically, shaolin took in a lot of people over its time. criminals, soldiers, mercenaries, patriots, civilians, etc. edit: not to mention housing visiting buddhists.

and just in general, seeing as how india and china are neighbors, and trade is a large part of developing civilizations, the silk road specifically would promote a large cross cultural development. traders need guards, guards fight, and are often out of work soldiers.

[sanjuro_ronin]

All legends have some element of truth,so I don't doubt that Bodhidharma had some influence on shaolin MA perhaps a huge one even, but we may never know.
I don't think that shaolin MA can be attributed to him in terms of origin but do believe that certain training methods can be and perhaps certain forms/principles.

[Lucas]

i agree with you on that. i think one of the primary influences damo had on shaolin is his legend itself. its a source of inspiration, which can be a prime motivator to develop/create, and succeed.

along side that, the muscle/tendon changing classic, and the marrow/brain washing classic are a primary aspect of traditional shaolin training, martial or not, and the greatest impact bodhidharma had on tcma. these of course being indian in source knowledge.

[Lucas]

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ah yes, a map of all the places I have gotten laid, where'd you get that and why is it missing the rest?