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Thread: Green Dragon Studios

  1. #526
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
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    OHIO
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    182

    Nothing Has Changed

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyKingUSA View Post
    Akron Friends,
    It sounds like we need a reunion! Anyone that is interested, please let me know.

    Kal,
    I think their fame stemmed from their ads and the fact that they were offering knowledge that many were not. Then stories to IKF were sent in by/about Allen and Chicoine. I cringed when I started seeing stories about Chicoine because everyone in the Akron area knew the kind of character that he was.
    One of my kung fu brothers had his school "visited" by some of Chicoine's students. They wanted to fight him. However, my friend was working that particular night and only his students were there. I also had another engagement that night. Those that were there at the next class that I attended probably remember how angry I was when I heard about it. I tried to send a message back to come "visit" my school, but never got a response.
    Years later I had a student who was interested in Shuai Jiao. He asked about training with Chicoine. I told him everything that I had heard about him, but he went for an "interview" anyways. After Chicoine bragged to him about sending students to my kung fu brothers' school to beat him up, my student wisely chose not to study with Chicoine and reported what Chicoine had told him. BTW, in case you might question my student's integrity in reporting the events, he is no flunky but rather a superintendant of a local school system.
    Sifu Shenk was also visited bytwo of Chicoine's Flunkies one night as he was closing up his Store.
    They told him to stop calling himself Mr Kung-Fu....or they would beat him up and wreck his Store/School.

    There are numerous other stories I have heard consisting of similiar occurrences and threats...but Sifu Shenk is the only one I know first hand.

    Does anyone see a pattern here?????????????????????

    Leaving Master Ong after 10 years of sucking him dry of his info...
    Getting kicked off the Police Force
    Owning a Strip Club
    Sending his students to threaten and bully Drunks and other Schools & Teachers

    I mean..if it looks like a Duck, Walks like a Duck...etc...

    JD

  2. JDK wrote:
    Sifu Shenk was also visited bytwo of Chicoine's Flunkies one night as he was closing up his Store.
    They told him to stop calling himself Mr Kung-Fu....or they would beat him up and wreck his Store/School.


    That is why the fashionable martial artist in the Akron area wears Beretta (firearms). BTW, did I mention that I am an Ohio Concealed Carry instructor?

  3. #528
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    OHIO
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    182

    Monkeyking

    LOL!

    Monkeyking, did you used to have your school on S.Arlington in Green back in the mid 1990's????

    If so, I and a friend of mine came out and talked to you one evening.

    I went to your blog and when I saw your pictures I feel pretty sure we have met.

    You and your students practice on gravel which I thought was cool.

    BM

  4. #529
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    OHIO
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    182
    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyKingUSA View Post
    RAF & JDK,
    I met Tony in 1986 after I had moved back to Akron. Tony's family was part owners of a restaurant named, The Great Wall. IMHO it was the best Chinese restaurant in the North Canton area.

    Tony struck me as a very kind and humble man. Success does not seem to have changed him any.
    When I first met Tony, he was teaching many students in his backyard. He once invited me to watch a workout and I was impressed.
    That is the same time period I worked out in Tony's backyard in Canton!!!
    I will never forget going up and down his backyard doing tornado kicks!!!
    Then I remember we also met somewhere closer to Downtown Canton I believe..inside a Building.
    Tony was practicing with rope dart on a chain...I had seen seen that weapon before!
    [quote]

    I met Dave Shenk through his health store near Tallmadge Ave.. When I first met him I believe he was still one of Tony's students and was present at the class Tony held in his backyard decades ago. Though I don't really know Dave personally, and am not sure if he would even know me by name, he was very cordial the times that we did talk.[/quote[

    I MET Dave at Tony's Backyard workouts! Small world huh?

    Well, this is all my old brain can remember for now.

    Friends,
    For those of you not involved in these old stories, I hope you are seeing that many of us in NE Ohio have tried to work together as friends and even as brothers. Don't let some of the bad things you might have heard of our area color your opinion of all of us.
    Richard A. Tolson
    Amen...

    JD

  5. Quote Originally Posted by JDK View Post
    LOL!

    Monkeyking, did you used to have your school on S.Arlington in Green back in the mid 1990's????

    If so, I and a friend of mine came out and talked to you one evening.

    I went to your blog and when I saw your pictures I feel pretty sure we have met.

    You and your students practice on gravel which I thought was cool.

    BM
    LOL! Yes, that was me. We trained outside of my apartment in the driveway. If you can fall and do ditang (groundfighting) on gravel, you can do it about anywhere.
    I have a much nicer set up now and would consider it an honor if you stopped by my school in North Canton. PM me for a time and directions if you are interested.
    The students I was teaching at that time are now instructors. Their links are at the website.

  6. #531

    Talking Stone Warrior and alike

    Another note:
    Many people have mentioned the Stone warrior exercise. Where did it come from etc. That was completely made up by John Allen. Circa 1978 was when it first started to be taught. It is take off of many master Ong type exercises and other things picked up and stuck together. To make mention that Allen had studied with Master Ark Wong is a fabrication. I personally know some of his students and they have no knowledge of this and Ark Wong's grandson does not recognize Allen in way. In 1980 Allen made the Claim that he possessed over 80% of the Hung gar system, why not just do Iron wire if you wanted a dynamic tension set.

    Knowing these guys, it just goes with being mysterious and rare, the big selling point. They and they alone have the secret teachings of old, and for $69.95 you can also learn the cross section of these rare systems.
    I have news for you, take that to Philadelphia or Chicago's Chinatown and start pushing it to the locals
    and see how long it takes before you meet up with a couple young men fresh off the boat, that think your making fun of them. See what happens.

    Funny story: I am friends with a guy who had studied At Green Dragon years ago. His thing was White eyebrow.
    He finished his schooling and moved away from the area. Ended up in of all places Chattanooga Tenn.
    For those of you who do not know, there was a for years a nice little Chinese restaurant in that town, the people who ran that restaurant where "for real" White eyebrow folks. My friend found out about it and made it a point to introduce himself. He was invited to visit the class and with excitement he did. He was asked to show the class one of his White eyebrow sets. He did, at least gave part of the opening gestures. He said all he remembers is the group of students that where there, making loud hoots and he was knocked unconscious. He said that he woke up in the trash dumpster outside the back door and the door was locked.

    Moral to the story. Be careful what you learn and who is teaching you. when I hear the words "large cross section of rare sets", I do not what to learn anything from that person. Something as simple as the opening gestures of a form done incorrectly shown to a group of hard core people who have spent their lives doing it, can be taken as an insult.
    How are you to know? Do I really want to trust learning a set correctly from somebody teaching over 300 sets from I don't know how many styles. That is ridiculous!
    Last edited by Piercinghammer; 01-06-2007 at 12:16 PM.

  7. #532
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Hawaii
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    232
    Quote Originally Posted by iron tiger View Post
    He explains that pretty thoroughly on the Q&A tapes.

    Could you give us the Cliff's Notes version?
    SevenStar: It's hilarious seeing people's reactions when they see a big, black dude with a sword walking toward them.

    Masterkiller: Especially when they're at the ATM.

    WTF? How did we go from the White Haired Devil strangling and beating guys to death in a teahouse, to Mr Miyagi and Jhoon Rhee?
    .

  8. #533
    Does anyone have a list of exactly which Inside Kung Fu issues had articles in them by Choicoine and/or Allen?

    I know they had a bi-monthly column in IKF that ran between (I think) 1990 and 92. Does anyone know the exact dates?

  9. #534
    It is take off of many master Ong type exercises and other things picked up and stuck together. To make mention that Allen had studied with Master Ark Wong is a fabrication. I personally know some of his students and they have no knowledge of this and Ark Wong's nephew does not recognize Allen in way. In 1980 Allen made the Claim that he possessed over 80% of the Hung gar system, why not just do Iron wire if you wanted a dynamic tension set
    Lolol! But whatever. At the least, thanks for helping confirm certain suspicions I've had about a few things...

    Explains some of the times I've been directly lied to by some of the so-called "celebrity" or better-well-known kung fu instructors during visits to their schools. Thanks again.

    He explains that pretty thoroughly on the Q&A tapes.
    Could you give us the Cliff's Notes version?
    While still noting my "puzzlement" as to why 'kal' hasn't already done so, since he seems to've seen those tapes...sure.

    Attitude & extremely hard work are the chief criteria for advancement in that school. And women just continually far outdo the men in these areas.

    And I will reiterate that, in my experiences there as well as occasional email contacts subsequent of, Bible studies were/are kept separate from what goes on in the MA instruction.

    I've got a lot of stories I could tell, too, about a lot of people mentioned in this thread, some which would portray them in a good light, some otherwise, including numerous stories about Chicoine as well as a load of tales about the superlative--unmatched, in fact--skills of Grandmaster Chang and what he was really capable of (something few people really are in a position to understand; no, really! The guy was a phenomenal MA); but I really have no wish to go there.

    But I will say that I personally witnessed numberless occasions when some students, or at times guests posing as eager students, got exposed on their b.s. and quickly, um...didn't last so long. And then ran out to tell everyone a completely different version of what'd "actually" transpired. So I take a lot of the claims related here with a very small grain of salt, as most of you clearly do mine...So be it, I don't really care, either.

    Fascinating stuff, though, MA in NE Ohio. Wow.


  10. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by Piercinghammer View Post
    To make mention that Allen had studied with Master Ark Wong is a fabrication. I personally know some of his students and they have no knowledge of this and Ark Wong's nephew does not recognize Allen in way.
    Was Master Ark Wong located in the Columbus area in the late 70's?

  11. #536
    Akronviper:

    The person you are thinking of was Dr. Wu, he passed on a couple of years ago. It was said that Master Ong had learned his tai chi from this person. I always believed that there was much more material form Dr Wu in Feemans curriculum than from anyone else. Ark Wong lived in Los Angeles Chinatown, Had been Teaching Ng Ying Ga, Five animal Shaolin since the 20's. He passed away around 1990, Very Well known Master. Still a group training hard in LA under master Ark Wongs grandson Mr. Seming Ma.
    .

    Mike Biggie
    7 Star Praying Mantis, Hong Kong Branch
    Choy li fut, Hung Sing Branch
    Yang Tai Chi
    Last edited by Piercinghammer; 01-06-2007 at 12:15 PM.

  12. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by Piercinghammer View Post
    Another note:
    Many people have mentioned the Stone warrior exercise. Where did it come from etc. That was completely made up by John Allen. Circa 1978 was when it first started to be taught. It is take off of many master Ong type exercises and other things picked up and stuck together. To make mention that Allen had studied with Master Ark Wong is a fabrication. I personally know some of his students and they have no knowledge of this and Ark Wong's grandson does not recognize Allen in way. In 1980 Allen made the Claim that he possessed over 80% of the Hung gar system, why not just do Iron wire if you wanted a dynamic tension set.

    Knowing these guys, it just goes with being mysterious and rare, the big selling point. They and they alone have the secret teachings of old, and for $69.95 you can also learn the cross section of these rare systems.
    I have news for you, take that to Philadelphia or Chicago's Chinatown and start pushing it to the locals
    and see how long it takes before you meet up with a couple young men fresh off the boat, that think your making fun of them. See what happens.

    Funny story: I am friends with a guy who had studied At Green Dragon years ago. His thing was White eyebrow.
    He finished his schooling and moved away from the area. Ended up in of all places Chattanooga Tenn.
    For those of you who do not know, there was a for years a nice little Chinese restaurant in that town, the people who ran that restaurant where "for real" White eyebrow folks. My friend found out about it and made it a point to introduce himself. He was invited to visit the class and with excitement he did. He was asked to show the class one of his White eyebrow sets. He did, at least gave part of the opening gestures. He said all he remembers is the group of students that where there, making loud hoots and he was knocked unconscious. He said that he woke up in the trash dumpster outside the back door and the door was locked.

    Moral to the story. Be careful what you learn and who is teaching you. when I hear the words "large cross section of rare sets", I do not what to learn anything from that person. Something as simple as the opening gestures of a form done incorrectly shown to a group of hard core people who have spent their lives doing it, can be taken as an insult.
    How are you to know? Do I really want to trust learning a set correctly from somebody teaching over 300 sets from I don't know how many styles. That is ridiculous!

    Was there any one person at Green Dragon that was learning such a wide variety of styles? Or did students have to choose and specialise in a smaller number of styles as they progressed?

    Was John Allen actually teaching all the styles himself, or did he outsource to other teachers?

  13. #538
    when I hear the words "large cross section of rare sets", I do not what to learn anything from that person
    Good thing General Chang limited his teaching then, considering all the diverse forms & styles & systems he had learned & mastered from so many teachers.

    But, fwiw, from a post at http://www.dragonslist.com/discussio...academy-2.html :

    I used to see them in the different martial arts magazines Inside Kung Fu, Inside Karate, Black Belt,etc....I thought they were fake because they would advertise every style of kung fu known to man even some very rare styles

    It comes up from time to time in various forums that anyone who claims expertise (or "mastery") in a large number of Chinese styles *must* be fraudulent in some way.

    But no one questions a pianist who has mastered the works of several different composers or a variety of diverse styles, such as rock, jazz, and classical; or a guitar player who can play rock, country, flamenco, jazz, and fingerpicking style with equal facility.

    In what some consider the more "Classically oriented" approaches to learning Chinese forms & styles, a student is properly taught to master the *principles* and fundamental building blocks (stances, punches, kicks, all the blocking techniques and etc) that make up *all* Chinese forms and styles, just as a musician learns scales & riffs & chord progressions. Then the differences, as well as the similarities, between the various styles, is ingrained as the student adds more and more forms from differing (sometimes starkly contrasting) styles to his or her repertoire (when such variety is available in the training). It is "mastery" of all the underlying Chinese fighting & training principles that is of supreme importance in this approach and which provides an important key to understanding such a point of view.

    Do I really want to trust learning a set correctly from somebody teaching over 300 sets from I don't know how many styles. That is ridiculous!
    Not if the principles are there in every set, and being taught! But Allen does specialize in some weapons & styles, despite having acquired such a large repertoire of material from so many teachers.

    Was there any one person at Green Dragon that was learning such a wide variety of styles? Or did students have to choose and specialise in a smaller number of styles as they progressed?
    Didn't you read the article in "IKF" about the GD curriculum? Or actually watch the Q & A tapes?

    Was John Allen actually teaching all the styles himself, or did he outsource to other teachers?
    He oversaw everything, at least while I was there. Other students taught some of the beginner's classes--teaching being one of the requirements for rank, there, since in order to be able to teach something you generally have to overlearn it--but in the end it all came back to Sifu Allen.

    Leaving Master Ong after 10 years of sucking him dry of his info...
    The fact is, there wasn't a whole lot of "info" given out. And most of that was wrongly taught.

    Are you deliberately "misrepresenting the facts," or do you just not really know what the heck you're actually talking about?

    Don't bother--it's a rhetorical question.

    (wink)
    Last edited by iron tiger; 01-07-2007 at 05:18 PM. Reason: grammar fixer-upper

  14. #539
    Join Date
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    Sub. of Chicago - Downers Grove
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    But no one questions a pianist who has mastered the works of several different composers or a variety of diverse styles, such as rock, jazz, and classical; or a guitar player who can play rock, country, flamenco, jazz, and fingerpicking style with equal facility.

    Reply]
    That is because the pianist can sit down and play each seperate style at the drop of a hat and show he's got the mastery, but when you ask these so called masters of 300 forms, all they can to is show Karate like fundementals, and flavor no matter what form they do.

    Not if the principles are there in every set, and being taught! But Allen does specialize in some weapons & styles, despite having acquired such a large repertoire of material from so many teachers

    Reply]
    I have his Tai Tzu tapes. Let me tell you, there are NO Tai Tzu fundementals, principals, or flavor in their form. Some of the choreography is actually Five Animals mixed in where the Tai Tzu moves had been omited, or forgotten. Whoever taught that form did not kow Tai Tzu at all.

    It looks like they just had the choreography from somewhere. It looks like the form was filmed at a competition, and then someone with NO Tai Tzu background tried to copy it useing the fundementals of whatever bad karate system they known previously.

    Unless someone trained form child hood every day like a full time job, for 20 years there is no way to know 300 forms, and know them correctly and teach them properly....
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

  15. #540
    there is no way to know 300 forms, and know them correctly and teach them properly....
    You know, that's really about as silly as Fister's premise that a pro athlete would "do anything" to get an edge.

    Sorry, but some of you guys really crack me up. If YOU don't know of a way, then clearly NO ONE ELSE does either.



    p.s. Incidentally, Allen is a classically-trained pianist.

    p.p.s. for kal: Just wondering...Had you considered contacting Dave Cater as to his opinion about Allen's legitimacy? Like what kind of a "reference check" they did before hiring him as a columnist (did you see the one on lineages, btw?) & contributor? Etc?
    Last edited by iron tiger; 01-07-2007 at 05:51 PM. Reason: p.s. & p.p.s.

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