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Thread: Green Dragon Studios

  1. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Piercinghammer View Post
    To make mention that Allen had studied with Master Ark Wong is a fabrication. I personally know some of his students and they have no knowledge of this and Ark Wong's nephew does not recognize Allen in way.
    Was Master Ark Wong located in the Columbus area in the late 70's?

  2. #287
    Akronviper:

    The person you are thinking of was Dr. Wu, he passed on a couple of years ago. It was said that Master Ong had learned his tai chi from this person. I always believed that there was much more material form Dr Wu in Feemans curriculum than from anyone else. Ark Wong lived in Los Angeles Chinatown, Had been Teaching Ng Ying Ga, Five animal Shaolin since the 20's. He passed away around 1990, Very Well known Master. Still a group training hard in LA under master Ark Wongs grandson Mr. Seming Ma.
    .

    Mike Biggie
    7 Star Praying Mantis, Hong Kong Branch
    Choy li fut, Hung Sing Branch
    Yang Tai Chi
    Last edited by Piercinghammer; 01-06-2007 at 11:15 AM.

  3. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Piercinghammer View Post
    Another note:
    Many people have mentioned the Stone warrior exercise. Where did it come from etc. That was completely made up by John Allen. Circa 1978 was when it first started to be taught. It is take off of many master Ong type exercises and other things picked up and stuck together. To make mention that Allen had studied with Master Ark Wong is a fabrication. I personally know some of his students and they have no knowledge of this and Ark Wong's grandson does not recognize Allen in way. In 1980 Allen made the Claim that he possessed over 80% of the Hung gar system, why not just do Iron wire if you wanted a dynamic tension set.

    Knowing these guys, it just goes with being mysterious and rare, the big selling point. They and they alone have the secret teachings of old, and for $69.95 you can also learn the cross section of these rare systems.
    I have news for you, take that to Philadelphia or Chicago's Chinatown and start pushing it to the locals
    and see how long it takes before you meet up with a couple young men fresh off the boat, that think your making fun of them. See what happens.

    Funny story: I am friends with a guy who had studied At Green Dragon years ago. His thing was White eyebrow.
    He finished his schooling and moved away from the area. Ended up in of all places Chattanooga Tenn.
    For those of you who do not know, there was a for years a nice little Chinese restaurant in that town, the people who ran that restaurant where "for real" White eyebrow folks. My friend found out about it and made it a point to introduce himself. He was invited to visit the class and with excitement he did. He was asked to show the class one of his White eyebrow sets. He did, at least gave part of the opening gestures. He said all he remembers is the group of students that where there, making loud hoots and he was knocked unconscious. He said that he woke up in the trash dumpster outside the back door and the door was locked.

    Moral to the story. Be careful what you learn and who is teaching you. when I hear the words "large cross section of rare sets", I do not what to learn anything from that person. Something as simple as the opening gestures of a form done incorrectly shown to a group of hard core people who have spent their lives doing it, can be taken as an insult.
    How are you to know? Do I really want to trust learning a set correctly from somebody teaching over 300 sets from I don't know how many styles. That is ridiculous!

    Was there any one person at Green Dragon that was learning such a wide variety of styles? Or did students have to choose and specialise in a smaller number of styles as they progressed?

    Was John Allen actually teaching all the styles himself, or did he outsource to other teachers?

  4. #289
    when I hear the words "large cross section of rare sets", I do not what to learn anything from that person
    Good thing General Chang limited his teaching then, considering all the diverse forms & styles & systems he had learned & mastered from so many teachers.

    But, fwiw, from a post at http://www.dragonslist.com/discussio...academy-2.html :

    I used to see them in the different martial arts magazines Inside Kung Fu, Inside Karate, Black Belt,etc....I thought they were fake because they would advertise every style of kung fu known to man even some very rare styles

    It comes up from time to time in various forums that anyone who claims expertise (or "mastery") in a large number of Chinese styles *must* be fraudulent in some way.

    But no one questions a pianist who has mastered the works of several different composers or a variety of diverse styles, such as rock, jazz, and classical; or a guitar player who can play rock, country, flamenco, jazz, and fingerpicking style with equal facility.

    In what some consider the more "Classically oriented" approaches to learning Chinese forms & styles, a student is properly taught to master the *principles* and fundamental building blocks (stances, punches, kicks, all the blocking techniques and etc) that make up *all* Chinese forms and styles, just as a musician learns scales & riffs & chord progressions. Then the differences, as well as the similarities, between the various styles, is ingrained as the student adds more and more forms from differing (sometimes starkly contrasting) styles to his or her repertoire (when such variety is available in the training). It is "mastery" of all the underlying Chinese fighting & training principles that is of supreme importance in this approach and which provides an important key to understanding such a point of view.

    Do I really want to trust learning a set correctly from somebody teaching over 300 sets from I don't know how many styles. That is ridiculous!
    Not if the principles are there in every set, and being taught! But Allen does specialize in some weapons & styles, despite having acquired such a large repertoire of material from so many teachers.

    Was there any one person at Green Dragon that was learning such a wide variety of styles? Or did students have to choose and specialise in a smaller number of styles as they progressed?
    Didn't you read the article in "IKF" about the GD curriculum? Or actually watch the Q & A tapes?

    Was John Allen actually teaching all the styles himself, or did he outsource to other teachers?
    He oversaw everything, at least while I was there. Other students taught some of the beginner's classes--teaching being one of the requirements for rank, there, since in order to be able to teach something you generally have to overlearn it--but in the end it all came back to Sifu Allen.

    Leaving Master Ong after 10 years of sucking him dry of his info...
    The fact is, there wasn't a whole lot of "info" given out. And most of that was wrongly taught.

    Are you deliberately "misrepresenting the facts," or do you just not really know what the heck you're actually talking about?

    Don't bother--it's a rhetorical question.

    (wink)
    Last edited by iron tiger; 01-07-2007 at 04:18 PM. Reason: grammar fixer-upper

  5. #290
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    But no one questions a pianist who has mastered the works of several different composers or a variety of diverse styles, such as rock, jazz, and classical; or a guitar player who can play rock, country, flamenco, jazz, and fingerpicking style with equal facility.

    Reply]
    That is because the pianist can sit down and play each seperate style at the drop of a hat and show he's got the mastery, but when you ask these so called masters of 300 forms, all they can to is show Karate like fundementals, and flavor no matter what form they do.

    Not if the principles are there in every set, and being taught! But Allen does specialize in some weapons & styles, despite having acquired such a large repertoire of material from so many teachers

    Reply]
    I have his Tai Tzu tapes. Let me tell you, there are NO Tai Tzu fundementals, principals, or flavor in their form. Some of the choreography is actually Five Animals mixed in where the Tai Tzu moves had been omited, or forgotten. Whoever taught that form did not kow Tai Tzu at all.

    It looks like they just had the choreography from somewhere. It looks like the form was filmed at a competition, and then someone with NO Tai Tzu background tried to copy it useing the fundementals of whatever bad karate system they known previously.

    Unless someone trained form child hood every day like a full time job, for 20 years there is no way to know 300 forms, and know them correctly and teach them properly....
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

  6. #291
    there is no way to know 300 forms, and know them correctly and teach them properly....
    You know, that's really about as silly as Fister's premise that a pro athlete would "do anything" to get an edge.

    Sorry, but some of you guys really crack me up. If YOU don't know of a way, then clearly NO ONE ELSE does either.



    p.s. Incidentally, Allen is a classically-trained pianist.

    p.p.s. for kal: Just wondering...Had you considered contacting Dave Cater as to his opinion about Allen's legitimacy? Like what kind of a "reference check" they did before hiring him as a columnist (did you see the one on lineages, btw?) & contributor? Etc?
    Last edited by iron tiger; 01-07-2007 at 04:51 PM. Reason: p.s. & p.p.s.

  7. #292
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    Like David Carter has any credibility here......
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

  8. #293
    Like David Carter has any credibility here......
    Ah, the Royal Drag. genius strikes again!

    I said to ask about the process they went through. Who else did they check with, for example? Whatever you might think of Cater, he was in touch with numerous people throughout the CMA. Including, say, Ark Wong. And, um...others.

    And as silly as it is (cover story on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, eg), IKF isn't really all that much sillier than any other of the "kung fu" ragazines out there.


  9. #294
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    I don't need to go t some magazine guy to tell me allen does not know much Kung Fu, especially Tai Tzu.

    The point peope make is that he stole forms from competitions, and then tried to copy them to sell on his tapes. Well, I HAVE his Tai Tzu tape, and I can clearly see that noone on that tape knows any Tai Tzu at all. It *Clearly* looks like a KArate guy, wiht really, really bad fundementals copied the choreogrhy only form a tape or book or something. No real Tai Tzu there at all. I don't need to ask anyone anything as I am my own expert on the subject.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

  10. #295
    I don't need to go t some magazine guy to tell me allen does not know much Kung Fu etc etc
    I guess the main problem I'm having is that I didn't know your other username was kal.

    Oh well, gotta go train. But whatta thread!

    And peace be wit' you.

  11. #296
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    Thumbs down misrepresenting the facts

    Quote Originally Posted by iron tiger View Post
    ..Leaving Master Ong after sucking him dry of Info...

    The fact is, there wasn't a whole lot of "info" given out. And most of that was wrongly taught.

    Are you deliberately "misrepresenting the facts," or do you just not really know what the heck you're actually talking about?

    Don't bother--it's a rhetorical question.

    (wink)
    Rhetorical or not I am answering you....you wrote The fact is, there wasn't a whole lot of "info" given out. And most of that was wrongly taught.

    That is pure Bull****.
    Master Ong was a very giving man. He treated his students like sons...and would give you the shirt off his back.

    He taught Chicione a Lifetime of information AND many closely guarded secrets of training..and how did Gene repay him??? Leave him and talk several students into leaving with him . Gratitude huh?...NOT!


    And as for it being "taught wrong".. E-Mail Chicione and he will still admit today that Master Ong used to kick his ass on a weekly basis. Why ? It was Master Ongs last attempt to try and develop some humility in Chicione....but my main point is if what he was teaching was so wrong...Chicoine should have been able to defeat Master Ong...I mean he was taller and an extremely good fighter, and he remains so to this day. I suppose the pictures he keeps at Ho Chun of Master Ong are to remind him of all the incorrect teaching he received huh ??

    I am not representing the facts I was there...were YOU?

    And one last thing...you only adressed one of my descriptions of Chicione,,,
    what about the other ones.????

    Getting kicked off the Police Force
    Owning a Strip Club ( Nice example of morality)
    Threatening other Schools and teachers just to bully them
    Sending his students to Bars to beat up Drunks to "prove" their technigues worked


    I could add more...but why bother.
    You obviously have your mind closed

    JD
    Last edited by JDK; 01-07-2007 at 06:03 PM.

  12. #297
    Funny stuff, JDK.

    I did quite a bit of research before I entered Green Dragon, and even more "footwork" afterward, though...

    More when time. 'Night!

  13. #298
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Akron, Ohio USA
    Posts
    912
    In a PM e-mail a former martial arts student from the late 70s ask me to post this.

    Not sure what his point is but as a favor to him here it is:

    http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/cults.htm

    "Passionate hatred can give meaning and purpose to an empty life.
    Thus people haunted by the purposelessness of their lives try to find
    a new content not only by dedicating themselves to a holy cause,
    but also by nursing a fanatical grievance. A mass movement offers
    them unlimited opportunities for both".

    Eric Hoffer
    "Its better to build bridges rather than dig holes but occasionally you have to dig a few holes to build the foundation of a strong bridge."

    "Traditional Northern Chinese Martial Arts are all Sons of the Same Mother," Liu Yun Qiao

  14. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Piercinghammer View Post
    Akronviper:

    The person you are thinking of was Dr. Wu, he passed on a couple of years ago. It was said that Master Ong had learned his tai chi from this person. I always believed that there was much more material form Dr Wu in Feemans curriculum than from anyone else. Ark Wong lived in Los Angeles Chinatown, Had been Teaching Ng Ying Ga, Five animal Shaolin since the 20's. He passed away around 1990, Very Well known Master. Still a group training hard in LA under master Ark Wongs grandson Mr. Seming Ma.
    .

    Mike Biggie
    7 Star Praying Mantis, Hong Kong Branch
    Choy li fut, Hung Sing Branch
    Yang Tai Chi
    Thank You Mr. Biggie, Dr. Wu was exactly the man I was thinking of especially because of the Tai Chi training. Just could not remember the name.

  15. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by JDK View Post
    I am not representing the facts I was there...were YOU?
    JDK, sounds as if your representing the facts to present your own personal agenda. Just that some of the facts seem to be representing this.

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