Registered User
my right leg is very sore today. but anyway, bringing in my leg to the side is not how we do it at my school. its typically in a line behind you like sow choy was describing. i didnt realize that ive been (lately) bringing it over to my right. my teachers are always correcting things that i start carelessly changing. i have some injurys from my past, so i start cheating here and there. im glad you pointed that out though, the last thing i want to do is cause more injury.
Registered User
hello...
The technique I mentioned in FuJows form was taught to us in the form of 1st a block of a kick, then shoot in and hit the groin... So shooting in is how most of us perform that move... I personally play with the ranges of stepping or shooting when practicing...
I also agree that the back leg should not come up and be so wide... But the main thing I work on is shooting in, a good landing as not to stress my knee, and a quick recovery... I also do not allow my front leg's knee to pass over it's toes... another position I see that can be bad on the knees/ hips...
As far as right and wrong... I feel it as a waste of my time and energy to convince people of what I believe is right... just share what I know... I would rather everyone else be wrong anyway... hahaha... just a joke...
If everyone was right... there would be less winners.. and less students... ya know...?
Also another thing about sliding on the foot that I dont like too... It ruins your shoes... and I do not like buying new shoes.. I want mine to last... I practice quite a bit outside... And use my sneakers while outside since my KF shoes wear out too fast...
Hope to see some of u in Dallas Chin Woo Taji Legacy... Also Eddie from SA is coming my way, so if anyone will be in Florida mid August send a shout...
Joe
Also...
People who are injured perform this stance differently, Sifu Li Siu Hung has injured his back while younger and does more of a kneeling stance to compensate...
Last edited by Sow Choy; 07-07-2006 at 11:07 AM.
Heads or Tails?
Lama:
If the stance resembles the positioning of a shoot, whether intended or not, couldn't that in it of itself be a jusitification/reasoning for doing it this way? We all know that techniques can take on multiple applications. If this particular technique has an application that maybe our masters before us didn't see, then maybe it's not so wrong to keep doing it that way?
LKH Lineage People:
Doesn't it strike you odd that it is only our CLF lineage that plays the stance this way? When no other lineage of CLF has a history of doing Lok Quei Ma this way, it's obvious someone down the line in our lineage decided to do it this way for some reason or another.
I think chasincharchui nailed it, when he said it looks cooler. We all know that our traditional arts have aesthetically pleasing movements that aren't exactly practical, or that you have to really get creative and stretch out some relevance to practical applications. Perhaps our version of this stance was done more from aesthetical standpoint, and not much more?
-123
The 10 Elements of Choy Lay Fut:
Kum, Na, Gwa, Sau, Chop, Pow, Kup, Biu, Ding, Jong
The 13 Principles of Taijiquan:
Ward Off, Roll Back, Press, Push, Pluck, Elbow, Shoulder, Split, Forward, Back, Left, Right, Central Equilibrium
And it doesn't hurt to practice stuff from:
Mounts, Guards, and Side Mounts!
Austin Kung-Fu Academy
Lama Pai & Choy Lay Fut
No, shooting in to take down (as in wrestling) is not the same is 'shoot in low' to throw a strike. They are not the same at all.
Dont' confuse the wrestlers shoot, because they drag their leg. If you don't understand what I mean, then there's not point discussing it.
We don't do it that way. So it must be something that LKH changed later on. Mak Sifu was an early student of LKH and so I think his form looks the most like LKH's original way. Although you can't always say because he's picked things up along the way as well from Buk Sam Kong and Ip Sui, his mantis teacher.Originally Posted by yutyeesam
It's OK for a martist to change and evolve although I think that in this case it is something that needs to devolve.
It's OK if you guys don't want to change right away but atleast be open to it. There are lots of things that I heard on this forum that I initially resisted but eventually I came to see where somebody else was coming from.
So don't feel like you need to defend it. However, the next time you do this motion think to yourself "why am I doing this in a particular way. What is the utility? Is there a better way? Am I doing this because it feels right or just because of tradition?"
Take Care
FP
Last edited by Fu-Pow; 07-07-2006 at 11:33 AM.
CLF Yut Gar
This is the problem I have with talking about techniques it is just difficult without physically being there and showing each other what we mean. We might think we are way off when in actuality it might be much closer than what we think. Also seeing someone's perspective live is always better than talking about it especially between different lineages.
Much easier to argue about lineage don't you think.
Registered User
Thats the word...
drag the leg...
when we use this movement goin in, even at the end of our forms, we use the back leg to shoot and then it drags when we cover the distance... LKH shows this in his book while avoiding a punch and goin low for the groin chop choy...
I do not believe LKH is the only lineage that does it, I just think we all are having a hard time describing it...
But... I was taught ot retreat with this step and use the arch of the foot... However I changed it myself to the ball in that situation cause I feel its more comfortable... I learned it that way at Shaolin Temple on one of our trips there... Where we trained on a very uneven brick type floor outside near the pagoda forest...
Ever since I kept that... Other CLF peeps I have met who fight Sanshou and Submission use this for the shoot also, and I was taught using it for the same purpose as the Jujitsu people...
FuPow...
Even Poon Sing's people do this stance the same as LKH... Even in Chan Kwok Wai's CLF and Bak Siu Lum... as well as Wah Lum...
So really there are many who do it this way... Can it help block or strike...? sure...
Is the ball better than the arch...? I believe in most cases...
"I believe" easier than This is RIGHT...
Joe
CLF Yut Gar
Fu-Pow:
Also to say Sifu Mak has sifu's original way is a bit of an insult to those of us who followed him at the end of his teaching career. It is more like Sifu Mak followed Sifu early in his teaching career, even before Sifu followed So Kam Fook. We all evolve over time so nothing is more "original" just a bit different is all.
Peace.
Dirty Boxer
CLFNole it is me Alec
I’m not saying you are wrong either It’s just not done in my CLF lineage. I have seen the stance done the way your lineage does it in some of the bak sing schools
The next time I’m back in Florida I might actually make it down to Boca Raton.
CLF Yut Gar
Alec:
I know your lineage does it with the ball of the foot as I have seen Chan Kin Man do it that way and if I remember correctly you are from that line.
Although we do it different I have no problem it is just I WOULDN'T TELL YOU THAT YOUR WAY IS WRONG, you know what I mean?
Dirty Boxer
Nole, I wouldn’t either. If your lineage does it that way your master Lee Koon Hung had a reason for it be that way.
I've seen a few differences in stance work when I do a combination of pow kup kup my front leg is bent, rear leg straight (bow & arrow stance) & I’ve seen an other lineage like mine from Chan Koon Pak do the same combination but with the rear leg slightly bent a bit like a boxer.
Sorry guys, I'm not necessarily trying to equate "original" with better. I'm just saying that LKH evolved as a martial artist so that people who followed him earlier might have learned something different than those that followed him later.
If Poon Sing does it your way then perhaps that is the "original" way, maybe Mak Sifu changed something because of other influences..?
Whatever the reason, my own opinion is that the ball on the foot way is the superior way ....from both a biomechanical and strategic standpoint.
Like I said, let it sink in, and experiment and find out which way is better and why.
FP
Always Learning
That was my point earlier. Drag the leg in with you as you move. Don't leave it out there with the stress on the knee. Plus it's a target.
Yes Wah Lum does that move but it's a half Wu Dip Ma, not Gwai Ma. We pull the leg in and drop as we strike. I'm sure you've seen it before. I guess CLF doesn't have Wu Dip Ma.
Eddie, let me know when you're in town. Maybe I'll take a drive down there. My daughter lives in West Palm so I can visit her too. My lower back is shot out so I'm limited in the anmount of training I can handle.
Oh, whoever said that leg out looks better in performance is nuts (IMO). Hurts me just looking at it but then I'm not so young anymore. A lot of things hurt me these days.
CLF Yut Gar
Fu-Pow:
I agree it is a viable way its just it is not the only way. That was why I responded to this to start off. If we stay close-minded as martial artists we would never evolve. I do the stance like you described being more "squared" if you will just rather than the ball I like the arch and can move very effectively from it into various other stances. I have played with it the other way and have nothing against just that it feels better for me the other way. Remember I am small and only weigh like 150 lbs. so it doesn't put much stress on me. You guys are all big so I could see were it might bother you.
I didn't take offense to what you said just wasn't sure if you were trying to imply something else. All is cool.
Peace.
Chop Choy
This is one of those situations where everyone is right up to a point. The stance with the back leg inside down is a valid CMA stance, commonly seen in Fujian styles, especially Wuzhuquan and Baihequan, as well as in the Wushu Nanquan form (the bit with the double palm strike on the ground), and I've even seen some Bak Sing Fut Gar guys do it.
However, Lama Pai is correct in that it is not what I understand a Lok Gwei Ma to be. The energies, intentions and applications are different.
The side footed stance puts the bulk of the weight over the front foot, making it good for moves that drive forwards and/or down. It's good if you hook with your front leg and drive downwards, and it's good for driving attacks to the mid section as discussed. However, the disadvantages are that your opponent has to be directly in front of you if you're going to use it offensively, and defensively the major drawback is it's REALLY hard to get up from. The structural drawbacks are that the bent leg is very vulnerable, and most importantly the knee and foot of the bent leg cannot be used offensively, which is what all the best Lok Gwei Ma applications use.
I must say though, Sifu Parrella, you seem to be really confrontational lately, what's up? Something on your mind?
"The man who stands for nothing is likely to fall for anything"
www.swindonkungfu.co.uk
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