Regarding fujow's video post

[CLFNole]

The thing of it is neither the shin, knee or ankle touch the floor or ground. The only difference is some do it on the ball of the foot and we do it on the inner side (arch) of the foot. The leg is in the same position in both. I have seen it in my lineage with the legs way to wide and have been correcting students for the past month.

The difference is minimal and like I said before what is right to someone might not be right to the other. I have seen other lineages do it as well but they must also be wrong. Least we are not alone.

[chasincharpchui]

i think its juss safe to say

it does look better during performance

not that i do it lol

[Eddie]

im glad this topic came up, I was to chicken to bring it up myself .

some nice comments here. thanks

[Lama Pai Sifu]

It does seem like people are always trying to be diplomatic. What the big deal about there 'not' being 7 different ways to do a stance? Is there something wrong with their being one way to do a specific tech?

Everyone can agree that there is not a different way to do mathmatical addition? There is not a different way to do a backstroke in swimming, either. WHY then, does there have to be several ways to do EVERYTHING in MA?

I'm not talking slight variation. You can throw a jab a few different ways, with only the slightest of variation, but they are all within 1-3% deviation. Not 25-30% different.

Everyone just says "oh, they do it different, there must be many ways to do it."

Well, HOW does someone have to do it, in order for everyone to agree it's wrong?

See my point now?

[hskwarrior]

To have variations of a technique is the nature of the beast.

Lama, as a full time martial arts instructor of many commercial schools, you must always be changing your tactics in order to keep making money at what you do.

The same is for the martial arts period. It's called evolution. If we only had one method of usage on any techqnique then we turn stale, especially as the current generation of masters who intend to take our gung fu into the future decades. We must always move forward.

Lama, why is it wrong to have a few variations of one specific thing?

Personally, I don't want everyone knowing how I use this or that, because if someone is stalking me out there he would know what I would do. Element of surprise can be your savior.

it's ok to have different ways, it also shows you fully understand your gung fu because instead of only having ONE way, now you have a few ways, ways that might fit someone else. If you only had one way, that one way may not be sufficient for everyone. remember, we are not built the same, nor move the same.

that's why we need variations.

peace.

[hskwarrior]

truthfully,

in response to lama's comment about math and addition............

I can add 1+1=2, 1 Some people do this in their head, on paper,
+ 1 calculators, and so forth.
--------
2

regardless of how to get to the results, as long as the results are the same then there's no problem.

there's no problem at all with having the knowledge of many variations, period.

Maybe Lama doesn't appreciate them, but I'm sure others will.

peace.

[TenTigers]

there are actually two different backstrokes in swimming;the standard backstroke, which is like the American Crawl on your back, and the Elementary Backstroke, which is similar to the Breast stroke on your back.
There are also several types of jabs. Mohammed Ali used a jab from a lower chamber when he was outside of danger zone. This jab raised the elbow. He also threw one that was closer to a backfist. Many boxers jabs are quick peppering jabs, and also raise elbow and shoulder. Jack Dempsey emphasized the straight jolt and drop step lead jab, which was actually jik chung choy-elbow down. striking with bottom three knuckles, quarter rotation, with the lead foot taking a half step, dropping the weight down and forward, into the strike.
From my brief exposure to Buk Sing CLF, I have seen several different variations of charp choy.
I have learned at least five different ways to throw the roundhouse kick,several different sidekicks, about five front kicks.
I have seen people do bow stance several different ways as well, depending on the usage of the rear leg, knee, kwa, etc. One with the inside of the foot acting as a sort of wedge.
I can go on, but I got errands to do. You see my point, don't you?
Your method is simply but one method. The one you learned from your Sifu. His method may have been based on his personal beliefs on application based on his experience, his body type, structure, and the applications he was taught by his Sifu. The frog at the bottom of the well looks up and sees this one small circle of sky. By this, he forms his opinion about the entire outside world.
Just food for thought,

[CLFNole]

Lama:

You said it yourself "slight variations". You do it on the ball of your foot, I do it on the edge/arch of my foot. The leg is in the same position and I can move in and out of the stance as easy as someone on the ball of the foot.

This topic is pointless and should have never been brought up but you came out like Moses and the 10 Commandments or something so I responded.

Peace.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

First off I'd like to say that I'm fine with whatever way other people do their moves. If it works for them then great. Plus every style has their own version of common moves.

Personally I would not and do not do it as in the video. Too hard on the knee in my opinion.

However I would like to point out that IMHO the move isn't an incorrect kneeling stance but and incorrect (by my styles standards) half butterfly stance.

In Wah Lum the leg would not be left out there like that. It would be pulled in closer to the body and drop a bit lower. I've corrected quite a few students doing it like the video, especially beginners who tend to forget about feet when focusing on hands.

I think if he pulled it in a little more it would be fine. It's just extended a bit too much. Anyone doing it this way might want to consider whether the moves is supposed to be Gwai Ma or half Wu Dip Ma.

[Eddie]

its not really pointless? discussing techniques is never pointless. hearing other peoples opinions and their reasons for that, is worth it all. If you dont like it, dont read here.

But I do agree, LPS's post seemed a bit arrogant at first. but im not entirely sure thats how he really wanted it to seem. Maybe its just that american thing

I wonder if we all just fight because that seems to be the natural thing to do. If its not over history then its over stances , next you will tell me Little Britain is NOT the funniest show on tv, and we'll have a huge arguement about that

but im also not attacking you CLFNole. I think you should know by now that i wont do that

[CLFNole]

Eddie:

Of course talking about a technique is not pointless. What I should have been more clear about is bickering about how a stance should or should not be done. If it is within your own lineage that is fine but to bicker about semantics between different lines will never go anywhere.

By the way I have thick skin so you can attack all you want

[Eddie]

i understand. but, we should maybe consider simple body mechanics, and i think this was what LPS tried to get at. the way we do it is fine, never bothered me until recently. When I was a younger, doing loc gwai ma was simple, but we get older and often heavier, hence me asking. Im still ok, Im generally fit, very healthy and have no serious issues, but other may not be.

Thick skin can be good, but honestly, its not my style to do that in the first place. BTW- Only 1 month exactly then I’ll be on my way over there. Will be in HK for the first week. Its been so cold this last few weeks over in Joburg, I cant wait to get some of that hot summer weather of yours

[CLFNole]

It will be nice to finally get to meet you. I think you will like the new school.

I should also say this after looking more closely at Fu Jow's video I agree that the way in the video is not the ideal way to do it and could lead to problems. It has been something I have had to fix with some students recently. The leg should not be so far out to the right. We do it more square with the leg closer in. The thing I was talking more or less about was the use of the ball of the foot or what we use in arch/edge of the foot. As long as the alignment of the hips and legs are correct you could use either without any problem.

[Sow Choy]

Hey guys...

Finally have some time to stop by... Too many threads to read, but this one was interesting...

With me I actually do loq kwai ma on the ball of the foot in most situations except 1... The one fu jow did going foward... We dart in, just like a jujitsu guy when shooting for the legs... so the back foot must slide, rather than a bow type stance where u need a grounded foot... I never touch my shin or ankle, that would hurt... But darting in is a sacrifice technique...

With the different styles of CLF I have seen, very few shoot in and cover such a large distance with this move... So when i do i slide on the arch or bottom of the foot so I can recover fast, rather that plant the ball of the foot...

If i am retreating or stepping side I use the ball... I agree with Lama, its easier on the body... But the CLF most of us do is for fighting and being quick...

FuJow, on your form: I just dont think you should bring your back foot up so muchin loq kwai ma lao jerng, I keep it in the same place as a bow stance, in the back to be lined up properly and not be exposed as much... You can also dart in for a leg shoot (takedown)...

I have seen people bring it to the side, I am guessing for more hip movement... But in a shoot, you wanna get in and out... or be able to move back form where orginated...

But I have seen many do this move different and many do it in a way that could damage the knee/ hip... especially done careless...

Peace...

Joe

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I guess I should rephrase:

Fu Jow: You right leg is too wide in the kneeling stance. Placing your arch and ankle on the ground is dangerous, as they can be damaged if they hit the ground and they offer no strength of support when trying to rise up again quickly.

Also, your right leg, being too wide, will offer you less stability than if you place it closer to your body, say...under shoulders. And, a simple understanding of body mechanics, not to mention physics, would tell you that it is unstable and puts uneccesary stress on the knee joint. Like I said before, as an excercise physiologist or a Physical therapist about it. They will most likey concur.

To Everyone here: I think we all agree that there can be variations of many if not most techniques. There is a certain level of acceptable difference, whereas the techniques would all be considered 'correct'.

But don't you agree, that there are WRONG ways to do things as well? You can't just do a technique, your own way, and then just proclaim it is correct. And I don't care how many people learned it a certain way or for how long. A technique can be incorrect if performed or taught WRONG!

Here's a great example; Cheng Man-Ching, the Tai Chi guy who came here many years ago, is resposible for 90+% of all the TC taught in America. I think he came here in the late 60's or early 70's. In the 80's, lot's of TC guys came from the mainland and beijing and were like WTF??? As it turns out, there is a right way to do TC, and CMC taught people in America WRONG.

Problem is, Who decides who is right? The other challenge is, people will fight about it all day, to avoid being WRONG. That is what this is all about here (and most places on the planet) EGO!!!

For the group that is supposed to be the most humble, MA people are the most egotistical! Ego gets in the way of people DISCOVERING or RESEARCHING what is right. Instead, they say.."Oh, this is my way, and that is your way." Again, yes....tech. has acceptable variation. But when do we say enough is enough? How DIFFERENT do I have to do a kneeling stance before someone shouts; "FOUL/WRONG".

There should come a time that a technique is wrong, which is really where this thread is right now. If my horse stance had my feet 1 foot further than my knees on each end, you can't possibly tell me that it's not 'wrong' and it's just my way of doing it. That stance would be wrong.

And, I don't want everyone to think I am arrogant, it's hard to disern a persons demeanor from a 'toneless' post. I just don't have a problem saying; "Yes, there are many variations that are acceptable of a kneeling stance, and THAT was/is not one of them."

Now, if I couldn't back it up, or refused to, then call me a jerk. However, I will show anyone why I think it's wrong, and I welcome anyone to dissagree or even prove me wrong! I would love to learn something new today. I already gave several reasons why I think it's wrong, but have yet to hear from anyone why they think it's right.

And saying you know other people who do it, or saw some old photo of some old CLF guy doing that way, isn't enough. Explain the physics of it, explain the application. The mechanics involved, etc.

And Joe, just because it look like he is shooting in, or that if you or I shoot, do it a bit like that; we all know that's not how he's using it in that form.

Whew!