Style VS. User

[Ray Pina]

It is often said that it is not the style, but the person fighting.....

Now, this is a true statement but also an easy way out.

I'll use Judo vs. wrestling for one example:

In Judo, if your hand touches the mat, if you you go down at all, that's it. So the practioner fights like mad to remain up.... but many times this leads to being thrown very vicsiously, were the defender has lost all control.

Wrestling on the other hand doesn't care, often if in danger of being thrown it would rather go down on its own under a certain level of control.

One could study the difference in these two philosophies and determine which makes more sense to them.

There are many instances in martial arts like this.

[Ralphie]

Someone put it this way to me. Two people with equal potential are training to run a foot race. One decides he's not going to run, thinking that crawling is the best method in a foot race, while the other takes a more realistic upright aproach. Who's going to win?

[MasterKiller]

Judo has ground fighting. Competition rules and training rules are not necessarily the same thing.

[SevenStar]

It is often said that it is not the style, but the person fighting.....

Now, this is a true statement but also an easy way out.

I'll use Judo vs. wrestling for one example:

In Judo, if your hand touches the mat, if you you go down at all, that's it. So the practioner fights like mad to remain up....

kinda. there is a point system in judo, ranging from a fraction of a point to a full point, just as there is a point system in bjj and wrestling.

but many times this leads to being thrown very vicsiously, were the defender has lost all control.

the defender is supposed to lose control. you are supposed to make him. there are three parts to a throw - one of those is taking his balance. it's this that gives you the throw. Naturally, the more balance he has, the harder it is to throw him. This applies to wrestling as well.

Wrestling on the other hand doesn't care, often if in danger of being thrown it would rather go down on its own under a certain level of control.

they care. As I stated above, they use a point system also.

One could study the difference in these two philosophies and determine which makes more sense to them.

There are many instances in martial arts like this.

I agree with you here, to an extent. Sure, this presents a case of how style matters, but it's more how the person adapts themselves to the style based on their own personal philosophies. This again points it back to the individual. But, I can agree with judo's philosophy, for example and adapt to it better and still get schooled if I am half ass training. so, it's not the style or the person. It's how they train.

[BruceSteveRoy]

not to get too far away from the point you are trying to make i just wanted to actually clarify the rule about touching the mat in judo
Article 16 -- Entry into ne waza (groundwork)
The contestant shall be able to change from standing position to ne waza (groundwork) in the following cases, but should the employment of the technique not be continuous, the referee orders both contestants to resume the standing position.

(a) When a contestant, after obtaining some result by a throwing technique changes without interruption into ne waza (groundwork) and takes the offensive.
(b) When one of the contestants falls to the ground, following the unsuccessful application of a throwing technique, the other may take advantage of his opponent's unbalanced position to take him to the ground.
(c) When one contestant obtains some considerable effect by applying a shime waza (strangle) or kansetsu waza (a lock) in the standing position and then changes without interruption to ne waza (groundwork).
(d) When one contestant takes his opponent down into ne waza (groundwork) by the particularly skillful application of a movement which although resembling a throwing technique does not fully qualify as such.
(e) In any other case where one contestant may fall down or be about to fall down, not covered by the proceeding sub sections of this article, the other contestant may take advantage of his opponent's position to go into ne waza (groundwork).
APPENDIX Article 16 - Entry into ne waza (groundwork)
(d) Example - When a contestant performs hikkomi gaeshi (a locked together rolling action), should the contestants separate at the end of the action, the result can be considered as a throw and scored accordingly.

When one contestant pulls his opponent down into ne waza not in accordance with Article 16 and his opponent does not take advantage of this to continue into ne waza, the referee shall announce Matte, stop the contest and award Chui to the contestant who has infringed Article 27 (xx).

When one contestant pulls his opponent down into ne waza not in accordance with the rules of Article 16 and his opponent takes advantage of this to continue into ne waza, the contest should be allowed to continue but the referee should award Chui to the contestant who has infringed Article 27 (xx).


With that said i see where you are going with the whole practice vs. practitioner argument. I think, as with most things, the answer is in the middle somewhere. I disagree that it is All about the style or All about the stylist. Its a synthesis of the two. and yes there are some people that are just very gifted and inherently understand body kinesthetics and excel regardless of the style just as there are those that dilligenlty train a style and have no natural ability but through very hard work can become a formidable fighter. but as for the average person i think it is a synthesis. just my opinion.

[LeeCasebolt]

Let's pretend for a second that Ray said "sumo", instead of "judo", and discuss his actual point. Rules affect the conduct of a bout, and training for a specific ruleset will affect the fighter's reflexes and responses. Given that...

What?

[David Jamieson]

the primary method used by many lines of teaching is mimicry and inculcation.


that is, you do what you are shown and then practice it over and over until it becomes second nature.

however, when what is shown is not shown in it's applied manner, then you wind up with a third of what you should know about what you are inculcating.

sorry for the 50 cent words, they were necessary to keep it short.

[Ray Pina]

Borrowing from another subject where Kung Fu players are saying there is no place for ground fighting skills in TCMA.... with that said, with everything being equal (size, experience, athletic ability, luck) will they be bale to play with someone versed in Muay Thai and BJJ?

It's a matter of tools to me. Of course the right tool in the right man's hand produces wonderful results.

But if your style doesn't allow someone to punch the face or capture the kick in its sparring, if it neglects the ground range you may have trouble competing against practioners who not only have those toold, but have honed them.

Likewise, in the future, if your style promotes certain positions because they fit within the frame work of sport rules (putting your head somewhere where it can be kneed on the ground, struck on the base of the spine, etc.) as generations go by practioners may take them for granted and pay for it if they play outside of the protection of sport rules.

Martial art practice is about honesty, not about being loyal to a style. You must see what are the problems out there in both sport and non-sport environments and how to adress them. This requires a coach who is confident enough to say "I don't know," and then go find the solutions. Practioners confident enough to say, " I don't know but should," and go find sources for the solutions.

[MasterKiller]

Borrowing from another subject where Kung Fu players are saying there is no place for ground fighting skills in TCMA.... with that said, with everything being equal (size, experience, athletic ability, luck) will they be bale to play with someone versed in Muay Thai and BJJ?

It's a matter of tools to me. Of course the right tool in the right man's hand produces wonderful results.

But if your style doesn't allow someone to punch the face or capture the kick in its sparring, if it neglects the ground range you may have trouble competing against practioners who not only have those toold, but have honed them.

Likewise, in the future, if your style promotes certain positions because they fit within the frame work of sport rules (putting your head somewhere where it can be kneed on the ground, struck on the base of the spine, etc.) as generations go by practioners may take them for granted and pay for it if they play outside of the protection of sport rules.

Martial art practice is about honesty, not about being loyal to a style. You must see what are the problems out there in both sport and non-sport environments and how to adress them. This requires a coach who is confident enough to say "I don't know," and then go find the solutions. Practioners confident enough to say, " I don't know but should," and go find sources for the solutions.

good post

[EarthDragon]

just to differ......... our TCMA system 8 step praying manits has 240 ground techniques to fight from a fallen position so people must understand that not ALL TMCA lack ground work. most of your complete sywtem incortporate ground fighting.
do you really think that in all the centuries of kung fu no fights every went to the ground?

Why do so many people think that CMA is only a stand up stlye of fighting?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

"Stand-up" represents the optimum level of accomplishment for TCMA.. to be so well trained and experienced that a trip to the ground is not even an option.. nice concept, but.. for the fortunate few that reach that level, they had to pass through the land of GnP.. for the vast majority of us mere mortals, ground-work is an essential element of "fighter's" game.. An honest fighter maintains the strengths and searches for their weaknesses, then fixes it..

For those that desire to elevate their game into the reality of street readiness it is self-delusion to believe that situations will never end-up on the ground.. even a passing familiarity with the ground game is insufficient in the street.. every "live" conflict has the potential of terminal results.. the ground game has to be as sharp as the stand-up game, it is the balance of reality.. My personal goal is to remain on my feet, it's safer there.. more options to deal with the very real prospect of the opponent's friends changing the odds.. but, i am comfortable on the ground.. the most worrisome situation is the enormous expenditure of energy in the ground game.. (cardio, cardio, cardio).. i hate that gassed feeling, it leads to panic which destroys the technique and further gasses you..

TCMA is a great "Gentlemen's" fight.. but, there are few "Gentlemen" in the arena of street level conflict.. even in the higher levels of reality combat competitions there are few that back-off until officials enforce it.. TCMA offers an advantage in sophisticated circles against the untrained or poorly disciplined, but a savy street-fighter is a dangerous person.. generally not willing to stop until there is a certainty that their victim is fully incapacitated, or.. dead. To reject tools that can increase the odds in your favor when your life may be in the balance, is a poorly conceived stragety.. like planning to win the Boston Marathon wearing snow-skis.. the skis are great for a particular purpose, the Marathon is not that purpose, though..

Honesty is a great virtue, knowing your limitations is too.. it keeps us from stepping into situations beyond our control.. if you have no intention of competing in NHB type games or if you are careful about where you go and how you present yourself, TCMA may suit your purpose well.. and, that's not a character flaw, it honesty.. but, if you intend to put yourself in harm's way, and believe that TCMA is the "only" tool you need, that is self-deception.. and, sometimes, we are best at deceiving ourselves.....

Be well...

[FatherDog]

Greetings..

"Stand-up" represents the optimum level of accomplishment for TCMA.. to be so well trained and experienced that a trip to the ground is not even an option.. nice concept, but.. for the fortunate few that reach that level, they had to pass through the land of GnP.. for the vast majority of us mere mortals, ground-work is an essential element of "fighter's" game.. An honest fighter maintains the strengths and searches for their weaknesses, then fixes it..

For those that desire to elevate their game into the reality of street readiness it is self-delusion to believe that situations will never end-up on the ground.. even a passing familiarity with the ground game is insufficient in the street.. every "live" conflict has the potential of terminal results.. the ground game has to be as sharp as the stand-up game, it is the balance of reality.. My personal goal is to remain on my feet, it's safer there.. more options to deal with the very real prospect of the opponent's friends changing the odds.. but, i am comfortable on the ground.. the most worrisome situation is the enormous expenditure of energy in the ground game.. (cardio, cardio, cardio).. i hate that gassed feeling, it leads to panic which destroys the technique and further gasses you..

TCMA is a great "Gentlemen's" fight.. but, there are few "Gentlemen" in the arena of street level conflict.. even in the higher levels of reality combat competitions there are few that back-off until officials enforce it.. TCMA offers an advantage in sophisticated circles against the untrained or poorly disciplined, but a savy street-fighter is a dangerous person.. generally not willing to stop until there is a certainty that their victim is fully incapacitated, or.. dead. To reject tools that can increase the odds in your favor when your life may be in the balance, is a poorly conceived stragety.. like planning to win the Boston Marathon wearing snow-skis.. the skis are great for a particular purpose, the Marathon is not that purpose, though..

Honesty is a great virtue, knowing your limitations is too.. it keeps us from stepping into situations beyond our control.. if you have no intention of competing in NHB type games or if you are careful about where you go and how you present yourself, TCMA may suit your purpose well.. and, that's not a character flaw, it honesty.. but, if you intend to put yourself in harm's way, and believe that TCMA is the "only" tool you need, that is self-deception.. and, sometimes, we are best at deceiving ourselves.....

Be well...

Good post.

[gabe]

Greetings..

"Stand-up" represents the optimum level of accomplishment for TCMA.. to be so well trained and experienced that a trip to the ground is not even an option.. nice concept, but.. for the fortunate few that reach that level, they had to pass through the land of GnP.. for the vast majority of us mere mortals, ground-work is an essential element of "fighter's" game.. An honest fighter maintains the strengths and searches for their weaknesses, then fixes it..

For those that desire to elevate their game into the reality of street readiness it is self-delusion to believe that situations will never end-up on the ground.. even a passing familiarity with the ground game is insufficient in the street.. every "live" conflict has the potential of terminal results.. the ground game has to be as sharp as the stand-up game, it is the balance of reality.. My personal goal is to remain on my feet, it's safer there.. more options to deal with the very real prospect of the opponent's friends changing the odds.. but, i am comfortable on the ground.. the most worrisome situation is the enormous expenditure of energy in the ground game.. (cardio, cardio, cardio).. i hate that gassed feeling, it leads to panic which destroys the technique and further gasses you..

TCMA is a great "Gentlemen's" fight.. but, there are few "Gentlemen" in the arena of street level conflict.. even in the higher levels of reality combat competitions there are few that back-off until officials enforce it.. TCMA offers an advantage in sophisticated circles against the untrained or poorly disciplined, but a savy street-fighter is a dangerous person.. generally not willing to stop until there is a certainty that their victim is fully incapacitated, or.. dead. To reject tools that can increase the odds in your favor when your life may be in the balance, is a poorly conceived stragety.. like planning to win the Boston Marathon wearing snow-skis.. the skis are great for a particular purpose, the Marathon is not that purpose, though..

Honesty is a great virtue, knowing your limitations is too.. it keeps us from stepping into situations beyond our control.. if you have no intention of competing in NHB type games or if you are careful about where you go and how you present yourself, TCMA may suit your purpose well.. and, that's not a character flaw, it honesty.. but, if you intend to put yourself in harm's way, and believe that TCMA is the "only" tool you need, that is self-deception.. and, sometimes, we are best at deceiving ourselves.....

Be well...

Honesty is a great thing. So let's stay honest, shall we? First, TCMA is far from a gentleman's fight. The ones I respected always had dirty methods, far dirtier than I expected. It looked nothing like the movies, if thats what you have in mind.

On the one hand, when people criticize forms people and the number of forms they train, they often say you only need a few techniques to fight with. Even the best use these few things over and over and win, no matter what art that is. This is a valid point in my experience. They develop their game and rely on it, especially when facing another who is extremely good at their own game. The smallest mistakes whether in the ring or in the street can be fatal.

So if we are being honest, how much time do you invest in the so-called all areas of fighting? Do you divide your week into a few hours in one area and a few hours in another and designate yourself a complete fighter? If you put a few hours a week grappling, do you think you have a chance with an intermediate BJJ stylest? Are you hoping that that few hours a week you spend grappling will suffice against an unknown street fighter? You don't simply add a tool called grappling to your arsenal, you work the hell out of it. The guys that roll five days a week are phenomenal on the ground; how will your 2 to 4 hours compare?

Yes, training multiple areas and being proficient is ideal; wouldn't we all like be great at everything. But if you're honest, you might find that when you pit your half-ass grappling against an amateur grappler, or your minimal boxing against an amateur boxer, you just might get owned. And then you might have to re-evaluate who exactly you are hoping to meet on the street. People often say they train to be "good enough" to handle themselves in all situations. Against whom are you training for, what kind of grappler are you "good enough" to face? When is "good enough" not really that good?

Some succeed because they put the time into it, and have the necessary talent. If you're honest, you may find that you don't have that time, and you don't have that talent. Then maybe you start thinking about what you should be focusing on. Yes, honesty is addressing your limitations. And knowing where to focus your time and effort.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Gabe: I'm not altogether certain what the point of your post is.. we agree on honesty.. am i to assume that you are inquiring as to my personal skill level? If you are, i make no claims in that regard.. that is something i let others determine, i'm in it only for the experience of "doing it".. i don't need or particularly want to make that judgement..

TCMA is far from a gentleman's fight. The ones I respected always had dirty methods, far dirtier than I expected. It looked nothing like the movies, if thats what you have in mind.

Perhaps.. by some people's standards.. but, the general state of TCMA today suffers by its own hand in the fighting circuit.. This suffering is an epidemic, supported by the need for $$ to maintain a large working "school".. And, i am very familiar with the "dirty" aspect which you reference, what i assert is that "dirty" doesn't win fights by itself.. you need the skills necessary to level the field of "live combat".. i've been in MA since 1964, fought semi-professionally 1969-1972 (11-4), and given several styles enough of my effort to understand (not "master") the system.. My current focus is on internal arts, with an excess of 40 years behind me in this game, internal arts are enhancing almost every aspect of my prior education/experiences... and, after 15 years in Taiji, it just keeps getting better.. I am honest with myself, i know i don't want to step in for Tito or Ken.. they represent the peak of the game and i've had my glory years.. I'm content to keep my skills usably sharp, deepen the internal aspect (serious potential, here), and pass along whatever experience i can.. I know "when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em".. and

I prefer TCMA for purely personal reasons, it suits my nature.. but, i am a realist.. if i get taken to the ground by a skilled BJJ player, i need to have the skills to balance the game.. at its most simple observation, the evidence suggests that TCMA "purists" don't qualify at the peak performance competitions.. if someone asserts that TCMA, alone, offers that skill-set in their "traditional" training, i respectfully disagree. That is like moving up from triathalon to iron-man competitions.. tri-atheletes are very well disciplined and remarkable performers, but.. Iron-man atheletes are just that much better..

Street environments are basically unknowns.. training within a closed system simply cannot account for some of those unknowns.. I applaud the dedication of purists and respect them.. but, they need to spend a bit of time watching some UFC or NHB matches, or watch some of the Felony Fights videos and honestly evaluate their ability to deal with that level of violence.. watch some of the videos of street violence, it's a wake-up call.. there is no reality in the training game, your life isn't on the line.. it can greatly increase your odds of surviving "reality", but.. don't confuse the two.. survival is a blend of training, courage and committment..

Be well...

[Ray Pina]

So if we are being honest, how much time do you invest in the so-called all areas of fighting? Do you divide your week into a few hours in one area and a few hours in another and designate yourself a complete fighter? If you put a few hours a week grappling, do you think you have a chance with an intermediate BJJ stylest? ..... The guys that roll five days a week are phenomenal on the ground; how will your 2 to 4 hours compare?

You are absolutely right, which is why I do not focus on submissions. I spend 100% of my training time on coordinated structure movements.

Good upper body structure does not change on the ground. Ideally I'd fight in the ground in the fidel position... but obviously I don't want to be rolled over and want to hit you, but take that as the safest structure and expand slightly until you knees and elbows can do something.

I don't train to be an expert ground fighter, I train to prevent. I have beaten plenty of BJJ guys, but I don't fool myself into thinking I will submit a high-level BJJ player. But I'm confident I can ruin one or two of his attempts and beat him with my fists/forearms/elbows.

Don't do someone else's style. Do your own. But make sure you can do it against punching, kicking, locking, throwing, ground.