Has WWIII Begun?

[ZIM]

If what america does is only self-interest, then say it, and stop screaming that America only wants freedom for everybody and to bring democracy to remote places.... Because i don;'t get it otherwise.

That's what I was saying!

What would you say if Al-Quaeda sais "What we do is just self-interest, scr3w what anybody else says about it".

I would not be surprised in the least.

How far can they go on "self-interest"? Can they go as far as America?

No. That's partly why I don't care. The other part is because they don't fit into my monkey-sphere. And truth be told, they don't fit into yours, either. They're merely a means to a self-interested end for you.

Or is it that killing children with bombs wraped to your chest is worst than killing them with laser guided bombs? (quoting something on this forum)

I hope that you get your feets down to earth a little.

My feet, though they are kicked up on a chair at the moment, seem to be firmer planted than some, I dare say. At the least, I know what I'm about & don't hedge anything about it.

[emisosa]

Argentinans. LMAO ROTFLOL
That was pretty good, I have to admit.

What's the fun in that? i don't understand...
please explain zim. But before, visit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War

[ZIM]

It was mostly funny because you were, apparently, appealing to my latent humanity or some such.

Trade ya!

[David Jamieson]

whadda ya think Steve will say or do about those dead Canadians winterpalm?

I think he'll do nothing. Israel will apologize and Canada will be ok with it.


Hamas was elected. I wonder why.

anyway, I still support Isarel. I still would like to see that they ease off on civ targets, and I still would like to see the terror sponsors and organizations crushed once and for all. So long as these groups exist, there will not be peace in teh middle east and we won't feel the trickle down of that peace in the form of cheaper gas, freer passage abroad, lossened borders and general goodwill towards each other.

You have to remove rot before it effects everything. Hamas, Hezbollah, AlQ, the Talibam, Al Aqsa, etc et al. These are your rotten apples, not defenders of humanity. They use their countrymen as meat shields and put there base of commands in civilian neighbourhoods.

I fell short o my estimate of canucks in lebanon due to faulty radio reporting. it is not approx 4000 it is 40, 000 canadians.

They are advised to leave the country, they are advised to go to cyprus and from there return to Canada. Efforts are being made to get them out. Many want to stay because they are originally lebanese

[KC Elbows]

News flash! There is not going to be peace in the middle east.

The whole idea that the very people who helped screw the region(in the modern sense) with their short term opportunism in the cold war and recent past(destroying an legitimate Iranian government that fought soviets from their borders in order to put one in that played ball with US interests ahead of Iranian ones being a fine example of such short term decisions) will turn around and save it without succumbing to the same opportunism again is very unrealistic. We are there for our own interests, and as such, we will be doing everything possible to put our interests first and the middle east's last, right up until the oil is out, and then, they'll have Bono to speak for them.

Our opportunism means that their extremism will have a place to take root. Or maybe it'll be nationalism labelling the next resistance. Regardless, either we get all that we can and leave the region without oil and an economy to mount a counter, or we get driven out and Israel finds some other big power to maintain them, and someone else takes our place in waiting out the fun with oil profits game. Or Israel falls, and chickens come home to roost, but that last one needs to be the prime concern, not because Israel is good or bad, but because that would mean the cultural tards of islamofascism we helped inspire would then be uncontrolled, and again, we're supposed to be killing all the Hitlers as we make 'em, no exceptions.

Let's assume that the extremists are killed off. Let's assume that the whole region becomes functioning, viable, sovereign states(or state) that is dead set on free trade, but hard line regarding corrupt foreign influence in their politics and economy. Trustworthy with nukes. You think they won't have plenty of cause to declare a war on the US and her allies? Exactly how do you propose they get foreign states out of their internal policies if they can't do so with the US?

The only reason that we can take a moral high ground in this discussion is because the people who are fighting, the islamic fundamentalists, are so reprehensible. The assumption that there are no fair grounds for fighting is convenient, but false, and those who depend on such arguments for anything more than propaganda don't have what it takes to win such wars.

Again, go Israel, anything they do that allows us to not have to act directly means they're doing exactly what the brits had in mind, and the brits who set up this deal knew a bit about how to destabilize possible rivals, be they moral or otherwise, even if they knew squat about the good of Israel, Lebanon, or anywhere else in the region. We should be cautious about believing our own moral rationalizations while we go the same route.

[WinterPalm]

Steven Harper won't even make a publicity stunt out of war happenings. He won't even pretend to care. At least the liberals wanted us to believe their nonsense about dying soliders and compassion. I know Harper will not condemn anything because he needs to look strong and resulute. His whole term has been about making himself and his party look good so that he can gain a majority, then we will see what they are really about. And without a doubt that have done a good job.
-money to people with kids.
-apologize about Chinese slave labour.
etc.


I agree that all the terrorist organizations need to be wiped off the face of this planet. And that includes the rich dynasties operating in all the rich democracies around the world that send missiles at whim, and support dictators who agree, and smash democracies who don't tote the party line.
It's sick.

The Canadian government has attached itself to the G8 resolution calling for a step down and return of hostages by both sides. I entirely agree with this sentiment. Many people blame one side or the other...the situation has been boiling and building by no help from either side...it is just that hezbolla started this months fighting. Israel will say no, hezbolla will say no, more rockets, more death, more peace plans. And haliburton gets the contract to rebuild.

[Mas Judt]

At the end of the day, I simply prefer Western civilization - flaws and all. I have no desire to live under the brutal, ignorant sword of a caliphate. At least in West, there is potential for constant improvement. The other option is simply unacceptable.

Mankind has never acted in any pure way. To expect it of ourselves before we act in self-defense is suicidal.

[Zhijian Tsui]

Israel has the right to exsist,but has no right by international law to attack another country.

[Merryprankster]

Crushing Fist:

You cite our withdrawal of diplomatic ties with the PA as indicative of U.S. lack of support for democracy.

But why should the United States offer support to a democratically elected government which holds positions the administration finds untenable? We should simply maintain relations because the country is democratic?

That is, put simply, silly.

Certainly, we would withdraw some measure of support for any other administration, HAMAS or not, that held positions contrary to our own. We would at the very least use our power to try and convince them to change their minds.

Now, I happen to believe that we should have maintained money flows and a diplomatic relationship, because that keeps a dialogue, and that ensures that nobody will come around to replace you. When you depart and cut yourself off, you lose the opportunity to shape the situation, and make it possible for some other country to begin exerting much more influence and have much more of a say.

But maintaining that relationship is certainly not some sort of democratic imperative, and cutting it off doesn't suggest that the United States is any less committed to democracy. It merely suggests that supporting HAMAS is anathematic.

Or are you saying that support for all democracies, everywhere, is in fact the imperative, even if it forces us to support governments with which we disagree, and that act counter to our interests?

I'll have to fundamentally disagree with that. That's like inviting a burglar into your home - clearly contrary to your interests.

No doubt that the American ideal as a representation of teir empire is in utter decline.

I LOVE statements like this! Do tell! Even at the nadir of our moral leadership - and we are probably at the lowest point - from a moral legitimacy perspective - since we emerged as a superpower after WWII, name one other country with more influence than the United States.

Name one other country more people are trying to immigrate to.

The American dream lives on...and it is writ in the heart, soul and mind of hundreds of thousands of legal and illegal immigrants each year.

I suffer from no illusions that the United States is without flaw, or occupies a "chosen" place on the planet or in history. And I think the United States could stand to revamp certain approaches to issues, both internally and externally - after all, you could add "Name one other country more people are irritated with," and probably get the same answer (I say probably because a lot of Indians are probably ****ed with Pakistan, and many South Americans consider Chavez a more immediate annoyance). In 50 years, we might be a second tier power. But, that will require, IMO, some major cultural, social and political revolutions in a few key places. And I do not know if they are up to the task.

China is the most commonly cited example of the next great hope...but they don't even have the financial instruments to float the Yuan and are VERY concerned about what fully floating it will do to their economy. They have 200 MILLION internal illegal migrants -rural Chinese who have migrated to urban areas- who cannot gain access to government services, education and jobs. The urban average income in China is about 3 times that of the rural migrants, and their purchasing power is similarly greater. Significant obstacles...

Remember when Japan was going to own the Western world?

Paraphrasing Mark Twain... "The reports of our demise have been greatly exaggerated."

[WinterPalm]

I see decline because the country spends in excess of 400 billion to maintain supremacy. If the American dream was so great there would not be so many enemies of the country. Or do you still think that people hate America because it is so great. And that greatness comes from constant war and an unequal global footing that allows the country to be so properous. While America became a superpower, it required turning a large segement of the global population into abject poverty.

Obviously more people want to live there as it isn't going to get bombed or invaded by America!

[CaptinPickAxe]

Maybe...just maybe, if we're lucky after the war Isreal and Lebanon will become one country. They'd call it Lesbion.


Get it? Lesbian....

aww, you guys suck anyways.

[Zhijian Tsui]

With this going on,you watch the price of gas going up now.

[ZIM]

With this going on,you watch the price of gas going up now.

Yeah yeah yeah. They built an Empire and all you got was this lousy T-shirt, eh?

[David Jamieson]

Israel has the right to exsist,but has no right by international law to attack another country.

agreed, and they haven't "attacked" another country without due cause.
let's not forget a couple of things.

1. hezbolah kidnapped their idf member. (in a bid to have other terrorists released from israeli jails)

2.hezbollah is launching rockets across the border from lebanon into israel and from gaza into Israel.


3. Hezbollah kidnapped two more idf members and continues launching rockets into israel.

4.hezbollah and hamas leaders have zero control over the fighters who rally under their banner. You essentially have multiple autonomous cells making a concerted effort to do damage to israel.

5.Syria, Egypt and Lebanon have been complicit with Hezbollah in their actions and in fact have provided weaponry to them for their chaotic hate attacks. Other nations are involved as well, such as Iran where Hezbollah is based and as well, which has supplied rockets to them inside of Lebanon to launch strikes at Israeli vessels. The rocket recently launched at an Isareli vessel was Iranian in origin.

6. Palestine is NOT an autonomous state and falls under the control of Israel. This can be changed, but the palestinian factions seem to want conflict as is more or less seen by their willful election of a terrorist oprganization following the death of the ineffective and protracted political Eunuch that was Arafat.

I think onece the foreign nationals are out of the country, you will see an intensification of the tactics used by Israel to route hezbollah. It will cause repercussions and you will eventually see the west becoming involved and on teh side fo Israel.


Is there a culture clash going on? Yes there is. Would you like to live in a global caliphate with little or no rights for women, a pathetic education system centered on only learning the text and interpretation of same from a book that is 1500 years old? Would you like to live in a society that has taken a step so far back in time that you wouldn't be able to enjoy any of the liberties or freedoms or civil rights or anything that we have come to build for ourselves over the last few hundred years.

Do you think sharia is a better way to live? Afghan women didn't seem to think so under the Taliban. in Fact, Sharia is what governs Iran, a totaletarian dictatorship run by a guy who has publicly called for the destruction of Israel. Yeah that would sit well with us wouldn't it.

Israel has done wrong things,as have the states and the rest of us. But then Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and all the terrorists who are supported and live in these countries have inflicted wrongs on their own people over and over again, have an obssession with the destruction of Israel and would hold you hostage to suit their agenda faster than you can eat a smartie.

don't kid yourself, these organizations are packed with nothing but uneducated and ruthless killers. the tale of the tape is pretty obvious.

So when Israel lays a little smackdown they get demonized? pssshaw.
You wouldn't stand for it from your neighbour, why the hell should Israel have to ?

[Crushing Fist]

Now, I happen to believe that we should have maintained money flows and a diplomatic relationship, because that keeps a dialogue, and that ensures that nobody will come around to replace you. When you depart and cut yourself off, you lose the opportunity to shape the situation, and make it possible for some other country to begin exerting much more influence and have much more of a say.

That's really the point right there...

But maintaining that relationship is certainly not some sort of democratic imperative, and cutting it off doesn't suggest that the United States is any less committed to democracy. It merely suggests that supporting HAMAS is anathematic.

What this situation shows (again) is how wrong the rhetoric is. The idea that we have to create democracies "over there" because democracies don't start wars of aggression or support terrorism.

We say we support democracy and free elections... but the whole world knows we realy mean.

We have NO problem with Saudi Arabia, a totalitarian regime that plays ball with America.

We consistantly undermine democratically elected governments because they will always do one thing: put their own concerns and those f their people before those of America.

That's why we demonize Chavez.

Democracy "over there" is NOT good for the Empire.

Lying about it just makes us that much more reprehensible.

Or are you saying that support for all democracies, everywhere, is in fact the imperative, even if it forces us to support governments with which we disagree, and that act counter to our interests?

I'll have to fundamentally disagree with that. That's like inviting a burglar into your home - clearly contrary to your interests.

I'm sure you see my point by now...

US policy is to pay lipservice to "freedom" and "democracy" but in reality it has nothing to with that.

Answer this:

What changed in Iraq that made it imperative that we invade?

did the goverment change?

no

Was there a current human rights abuse that required intervention?

no, when that was going on we were ok with it...

WMD's?

don't make me laugh.

what changed?

Saddam stopped playing ball...

He started selling oil in Euros.

that's the reason for the invasion.

the US doesn't care what kind of government they have "over there"

only that they do what we tell them.