CLF & relaxed power

[Jeong]

Hey guys, I've been doing CLF for a little less than 2 years now and one thing that my Sifu has really emphased is the idea of relaxed power. I've been trying to take my training the the next level in this area and I wanted to know if any of you pros out there have any good suggestions for things to practice that would help with that.

Right now I've really been trying to do my forms slowly with full extension and trying to hold no tension in my arms. I've also been practicing a faster but keeping my hands open instead of in fists which seems to help a lot too. Anything else out there?

[unyma]

I'm not sure keeping your hands open is such a good idea. You're training one way but the minute you close your hands you're going to feel tension in your arms and shoulders that you haven't trained for. I'd suggest doing the forms the way they were shown to you and focusing on relaxing. It's amazingly hard to stay relaxed while doing a form, it just takes good focus.

Mitch

[thedoodey]

breathing! try to coordinate your breathing to your movements, as you get higher breathing will direct ur movents they will b in unison.

the first form i learned is for good breathing and chi gong, ng lun mah? not sure if u've learned that

when u sink exhale(distribute your power), rise inhale(relax/retract)

try short bursts of breathing as well, meaning at moment of impact, you would exhale-release in a small but emphasized burst of air

[CLFNole]

This is an interesting question and one that there is not an easy answer to. My view is that CLF's loose power just comes with time and as you learn to develop a feel and understanding to each movement. I don't think there is a set of drills one could give a beginner that would make them have loose power. Practicing relaxed will help to a degree but you don't want to forego power just to be relaxed there has to be a balance. One of the keys to attaining loose power is to learn to use the whole body and to use the stance to help generate additional power. If you just use your arms when punching you will not get it, the hip, waist, shoulder and stance are all of equal importance.

Just keep at it and it will eventually come I don't think there is a timetable on it but 2 years is not very long when it comes to training.

Good luck.

[Jeong]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

unyma - thanks for the input on the open hands. Usually what I try and do is pick a section of a form and run through it a few times with my hands open (and arms and hands totally relaxed) and then gradually try to work them closed without loosing the level of relaxedness. It's funny, somehow keeping my hands not in fists really helps me use my waist and shoulders more, I don't really understand it.

thedoodey - somehow I stumbled at least a little bit on the idea of what you're talking about. I'm not sure if someone told me this or I just started doing it but I do try and exhale a little bit with (most) strikes. Helps a lot. I'll try that breathing with the rising/lowering as well. I haven't learned ng lun mah - I've learned mostly forms that have come from the LKH line (not sure if that is one of his, but I haven't learned it)

CLFNole - I think you said it perfectly when you said that the hip waist, shoulder and stance are all of equal importance, I guess what I'm trying to learn is how to get all of these to work together synergistically. I guess when I see LKH doing a form I can totally tell that every body part is exactly where he wants it and there is zero tension in his muscles beyond what is necessary to hold them wherever they are. Now I know that it'll probably take another 50 years of practice before I have a prayer of getting 1/4 of the way to his level, but I have a hard time believing that he got that fluid without working towards it somehow. I mean there are a lot of karate masters that have been doing karate for as long as LKH did CLF but don't look nearly as smooth. But, I don't know, maybe I just exposed my ignorance. Anyways, thanks for the input!

Anybody else? I know there are a lot of you out there!

[CLFNole]

Jeong:

No sifu just didn't get smooth he worked at it very hard. When he taught us he would emphasis on us being explosive in our movements. If you pay attention to the forms you can notice a pattern of being explosive for a series then going to a slight pause then continuing in a similar fashion.

One thing that helps to learn loose power is practicing on the ching jong. In addition to working the kiu sow and footwork it helps to develop proper striking jing. Bagwork will also help. I often show students how to use the sow choy. More often than not the students tighten and try to muscle it. When I hit the same bag very loose the power is more becuase I am relaxed and it becomes like a hot knife through warm butter.

The more and more you do it the more you will understand what I am getting at. Feel is very important and cannot be taught. Some people have and others do not.

By the way we do have "ng lun ma" we refer to it as "lie ma". I am not sure who your sifu is but he may or may not teach it.

Peace.

[SevenStar]

I guess when I see LKH doing a form I can totally tell that every body part is exactly where he wants it and there is zero tension in his muscles beyond what is necessary to hold them wherever they are.

physiologically, there is always SOME tension there, not zero. If there is movement involved, there is some level of tension. Even during REM sleep there is tension in the muscles. Deeper stages of sleep and possibly deep meditation are the only times you will find zero or close to zero tension. So, in addition to tension needed to hold them there, some amount of tension moved them there.

I mean there are a lot of karate masters that have been doing karate for as long as LKH did CLF but don't look nearly as smooth.

Stylistic difference - smoothness is not what the karateka is looking for. hardness is. That said, you can be hard and still fluid.


Anyway, this is a great thread - keep it up!

[Eddie]

one thing, clfnole, I want to ask you. are you tired when you finish a form? Im very tired when I finish my form, but it looks like LKH did his form without any effort and without getting tired. just want to know If im the only one, am I maybe doing something wrong?

ofcourse Im like three times LKH's size (weight and legnth) so that could count for something

[CLFNole]

Eddie:

I think the size thing definately plays a part. My size is more like sifu's although I am a little taller (5'8"). If you notice most of the time when Sifu would demo it wouldn't be a long form so it is easier to maintain your energy. Busting out ping kuen should be relatively easy when a person trains regularly. Something that can effect this would be if the performer is nervous as this can definately drain some of your energy.

When I train with Sifu Li Siu Hung, we tend to practice long forms first like Sup Gee, Ping Chan Kuen, Baat Kwa Sum, the long version of Ping Kuen and then Sheung Garp Dan Kwun. Doing these sets in succession is very good for your endurance. I try to keep a good pace just to further increase my energy.

Another thing you might try is to train with heavier weapons or to put wrist and ankle weights on. This provides a change-up to training and can help both endurance and strength. When doing this you do want to do the forms slower and be careful while kicking with ankle weights on.

Hope this helps.

[Jeong]

CLFNole - thanks again for the valuable feedback. My Sifu definately talks about explosive power; it's certainly been a major focus of my form work until lately. I realized though that I have a hard time being explosive and relaxed at the same time, so I'm trying to figure out how to put the two ideas together.

I definately see what you're talking about with the bag work. I was just working sow (among other things) last night on the pads. It seems a lot easier to remain relaxed with just one techinique than a form though.

Eddie - I totally hear you, when I finish a form I'm usually pretty tired, particularly for longer ones. I think that part of (at least for me) why that is relates to the relaxed power. I think I'm trying to be explosive at the cost of tense muscles which makes your muscles work against each other and drains your energy much faster. That's a big part of why I asked this question.

Let me ask you guys something along these same lines. When you're doing a form how exactly do you picture what you're striking at? I mean do you picture targets that you're hitting and kicking or what? I was thinking it would perhaps help me a little if I tried to focus on something other than the technique to try and relax somewhat.

[CLFNole]

I don't think it is so much about picturing where you are striking but rather understanding proper alignment and where more or less the strike would be given your alignment. In general Sifu used to tell us to use our own height and level in relation to where the strike would be. With kicks; however true application would be lower but for form purposes we tend to kick higher. The key thing when doing a set is that things are balanced correctly and that things make sense. For example you would want your yum chop choy ending above head height. In our sets yum chop is generally level with the shoulder or downward very slightly (not too much), in application this would vary of course.

To really understand to relax you have to not think and just flow. "Feel" is really the most important thing to me when talking about kung fu and different styles. You need to have the right "feel" for different styles for example the "feel" for CLF would be different from Hung Gar and vice versa.

[unyma]

I think having a "target" does help. Not to the extent that you're putting all of your focus there but if you don't have something in mind your energy will just kind of go, no focus to it. For example if you're doing a straight punch and you don't have an idea of where you want that punch to land you probably won't be very effective and you'll probably be able to feel that it wasn't very effective. Add a mental target and I think you'll feel the strike differently.

I agree wholeheartedly that alot of it is "feel". The fact that you can feel these things to begin with says that you're progressing in your training. I think it's a skill to "feel", you don't start out able to do so. As someone else mentioned 2 years is a relatively short period of time to have been training.

[Eddie]

Ja I do train with wrists weights. Generally when I do a demo, Im less out of breath than when I practice - but then again, I always do weight training before I do cardio and kung fu (forms) training. By then my muscles are very tired.

[CLFNole]

Eddie:

Well that explains it then, you kinda of left that out. If you go right from weight training to forms practice you are bound to feel some fatigue. Kind of like going from intense kung fu practice to tai chi practice, you will be all jacked up from kung fu and it will be difficult to get in the tai chi mind frame.

Unyma:

I didn't mean you shouldn't have an idea where each strike goes. I meant you don't need to imagine fighting a person like shadow boxing. You obviously wouldn't want someone just punching or kicking in any direction.

[unyma]

CLFNole, I didn't think you meant that, I was just clarifying a bit, mostly for my own benefit. Sometimes folks don't have a firm enough target in mind and then once they do it feels all sorts of different, usually better.