Wudang Tai Chi

[dre_doggX]

can anyone tell me anything about wudang tai chi chaun and San Zen Feng. it read that he was a taoist monk who went to shaolin for a while when he came back to Wudang temple he made what he learned basing it on wudang or daoist theories into tai chi chuan but latter one of his disiplies met Chen Wan Ting at Chen Village when he was making Tai chi. I know that Chen Wan Ting after he retired took liking to Taosim, so do you think that its true a disiple of San Zen Feng taught out he knew to Chen Wan Ting. I do know for certian however that Chen Wan Tings kungfu(tai chi) would of been "slow" even if he had never met the Wudang Disiple, because we was trying to making a qigong

Andre Lashley

[MaFuYee]

i hate to be the one to break it to you, but, CZF is about as real as santa claus... and there is no budhist nun wu mui, nor a yim wing chun.

* and there is a lot of speculation that there was no dat mo.

it is just very popular in chinese culture to attribute the origins of a system to legendary/mythical figures.

believe me, or don't. - i'm not going to argue.
but, i suggest you do some more research into the matter, and come to your own conclusion.

Only in America do we have drive up ATM's with braile on them.

[Tsui]

Andre, despite the other gentleman's post, you are very much correct.. at least as correct as we can be with something that happened that long ago. As I said in another section of this forum, this is one area of history our Sifu didn't tell us to take with a grain of salt. There is documentation of Chang Sang Feng creating an internal meditation to give a physical structure to the Iching, he went to Shaolin because they had a long tradition of meditation in movement. The Chen's took what they learned from Wudang and combined it with prexisting fighting styles to become thier family Kung Fu. Also, the movements of the several forms that Chang Sang Feng created came from Shaolin and from various dance and exercise routines that had already existed, there is old references to "the great dance" it is belived this was inspiration.
As to the veracity of my statements? My Sifu is the 12 successor of a line back to the 1500's, the founder learned at Shaolin and elsewhere. As a soldier, he had an awakening when he saw the distruction he had done and founded the Lamm Loong Pac (way of the blue dragon) as a vehicle to SAVE the knowledge that was being lost.

[Brad]

Tsui,

What documentation do you have? Everyone expects everyone to believe them based on the fact that "teacher said so". There are just way to many claims floating around out there that cannot be verified in any way.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As I said in another section of this forum, this is one area of history our Sifu didn't tell us to take with a grain of salt. [/quote]

No offense, but on the internet this doesn't mean a whole lot. Kungfu teacher's aren't really known to be the best historians. It would be a lot more helpful if you could find a way to post whatever documentation you have on the internet for discusion.

[GLW]

Tsui,

how confusing...

Zhang Sanfeng..Wudang, Shaolin... Why not add Yueh Fei and Lu Da in there too... (Lu Da is fictional, by the way)

"As I said in another section of this forum, this is one area of history our Sifu didn't tell us to take with a grain of salt."

And since HE doesn't take it with a grain of salt, it must be true. This is totally illogical and flies in the face of reputable historical research of all types.

"There is documentation of Chang Sang Feng creating an internal meditation to give a physical structure to the Iching, he went to Shaolin because they had a long tradition of meditation in movement."

Reallly...I wonder why Tang Hao and Gu Luxing didn't find that stuff when they spent most of their lives researching the origins of Taijiquan.

Chan Buddhism is NOT based upon moving meditation. It is still meditation. The modern day version or offshoots of this are still practiced in Japan...ZEN.

"The Chen's took what they learned from Wudang and combined it with prexisting fighting styles to become thier family Kung Fu. Also, the movements of the several forms that Chang Sang Feng created came from Shaolin and from various dance and exercise routines that had already existed, there is old references to "the great dance" it is belived this was inspiration."

Really convoluted.

A Dance now...the great dance in one sense is the fabric of life. Know when something is a metaphor and when it is literal.

"As to the veracity of my statements? My Sifu is the 12 successor of a line back to the 1500's, the founder learned at Shaolin and elsewhere. As a soldier, he had an awakening when he saw the distruction he had done and founded the Lamm Loong Pac (way of the blue dragon) as a vehicle to SAVE the knowledge that was being lost. "

And this means what? It still boils down to "My sifu said..." I can tell you of at least 5 VERY famous teachers in the US who claim to be one thing and are NOT...and that is without EVEN touching the topic of monks.

The likelihood that a single person outside of China who teaches kung fu in a commercial place would have the 'real' history is in itself pretty far fetched...much less the history you claim.

[Tsui]

I recognize the points you guys make, and that you have VERY valid reasons for doing so. I could not agree more that there is a TREMENDOUS amount of information and misinformation. We could each show each other volumes of written history concerning the same topics that take contray views. What can I say? The proof is in the pudding. I have seen other's Kung Fu BEFORE I met my current Sifu, no one else I've seen compares (somewhere I have no doubt, but none that I have seen) I have seen the respect given him by other teachers, I have seen the results of his teaching. He is known and respected by many in the Kung Fu world domestically and abroad. If you choose not believe me, there is nothing I could do on God's green earth to sway you. I suppose I could direct you to the Taoist Institute in CA. He taught there some ten years ago, his name is John Bright-Fey.

[[Censored]]

There is a lot of speculation that there was no Da Mo? Among whom?

What proof do you have that your great-great-grandmother ever existed? Because there is some speculation that she did not.

[Ky-Fi]

From what I've read and been taught, once you go back further than a few hundred years, Chinese martial arts lineages get pretty murky. As MFY said, it was common to attribute the creation of a style to a famous or charismatic figure. This is compounded with the fact that for a large part of Chinese history the scholars and intellectuals who recorded the history tended to look down on martial arts in general, and place little importance on them. As far as Cheng Sang Feng, I don't think there's common agreement on his role in the creation of Taijiquan. Personally I think it's more likely that the art slowly evolved from a long line of martial artists stretching way back before much history was recorded, rather than resulting from some sudden creation by an individual. I'm not saying everyone who makes ancient lineage claims is wrong, but I tend to be pretty skeptical of any school that says "This is exactly what happened 1000 years ago", when those claims would not really be agreed upon by most independant sources.

[GLW]

Reference the story of the frog in the well....

:)

To each his own

[Tsui]

I never did say that Chang Sang Feng just pulled Tai Chi out of his ear or from some lighting bolt from the skies, I said (in a nut shell) that he put pre-existing arts together with aid from his Shaolin buddies. It was not totally spontaneous.

GLW-If you look at my post I never suggested that Ch'an WAS moving meditation, only that they had a HISTORY of it. Tamo's 18 right? Intended to stregthen the monks bodies while helping them to refocus when they were distracted in their seated meditation. I don't mind you saying I'm wrong, or and idiot or something, nut brother PLEASE don't misquote me!

That all being said, why don't we agree to disagree eh? So many of these things end up sounding like Monty Python's Argument Clinic!

[Sam Wiley]

Tsui,
Don't even bother trying to argue Chang San-feng's existence with GLW. I've tried it. You'd get better results trying to drill a hole in a brick wall with your forehead.

And don't bother to compare him to any biblical figures. And don't for Pete's sake make correspondences between the Classics and religious texts. They hate that.

There are probably 1000 stories, all of them similar, but partly contradictory. There are pieces, however, that fit together with a little imagination and reading between the lines, and of course, you might have to take as a given what most everyone else says is a lie.

Many people when they consider Chang as having invented Taiji, picture him as having come up with something similar to the modern styles, but it's a pretty big leap between nothing at all, or even Shaolin martial arts to modern Taiji. One theory I have heard recently was that Chang wanted reflexive techniques, and invented 10 very simple short fa-jing forms, which do indeed give reflexive technique (I have known them for years, but never thought about Chang inventing them until I was discussing the creation of Taiji with friends in New Jersey a few months ago). These 10 forms build your energy tremendously, something that was probably a side effect at first. I learned them as basic point striking techniques, but they go beyond just technique into reflex actions. Also, every time I practice one at a fa-jing pace a few times, I become extremely yang and aggressive for a while.

Anyway, those forms have little resemblance to Taiji in its modern form. The theory goes that Chang experimented some more and came up with devastating combo strikes instead of simple set-ups and main strikes. So his art evolved a little bit. Probably through some acupuncture knowledge, meditation, and qigong and energetic knowledge he picked up at Shaolin, he developed 12 more sets of movements, some of which bear a striking resemblance to to the supposed earlier forms he invented. Each one of these movements supposedly works upon an individual meridian at a healing level when done with fa-jing, has a secondary qigong effect when done slowly, and also does specific energetic damage through combinations of points struck. Some of them are said to do the exact reverse of the healing effect when used in a fight. Anyway, here we see a few similarities between these short forms and modern Taiji, as some of the postures are very similar to modern Taiji postures. For instance, the ones that heal the heart and the small intestine end in postures strikingly similar to Brush Knee Twist Step and Fan Through Back, which are said to heal those same organs respectively.

Up until now, the forms have been very short, all fa-jing, and are translated easily into sparring and San Sau training. The next step in the evolution of Taiji, according to this theory, is where Chang tries to create longer forms, each focusing on a particular meridian. I'm not quite sure what happened at this stage, if the theory holds true, as some of the meridians have two forms for them, while others are lumped together all in one form. However, we really start to see similarities to modern Taiji at this stage. Not only are postures the same as in modern Taiji, but in the final several forms, there is a balance between slow and explosive, as in the "older" forms of modern Taiji. The first 6 of these forms are all fa-jing, while the last 6 contain slow qigong movements in between explosive movements. It was also at this stage that Push Hands came into being. The forms were no longer easily translated into simple fighting methods, but the core methods of each form were taken and used to create push hands like exercises. They are actually somewhere between push hands and San Sau training, technically.

There's really too much to discuss about this stuff in just one post. But if I may make some speculations of my own, considering that I have put forth this theory of Taiji's evolution now.

Supposedly, Yang Lu-chan learned through a hole in the wall. He heard fa-jing training while passing by and caught a glimpse of either Chang's first 10 forms or the next 12 in the evolutionary chain here. I really don't see how he could have learned Chen style forms at this stage without actual instruction, but these are pretty easy to pick up, and easy to conceal as they are only a second or two long each. When the challenger came to fight the Chen master and he was away, Yang accepted and beat him, using the reflex action non-techniques he had gleaned through the crack in the wall. Chen's top students recognised this, and informed the master, who tested Yang and decided to accept him as a disciple. And history pretty much picks it up from there.

This is all supposition of course. I think it would be really interesting if these 10 or 12 forms were released by the Chen family, providing a link between the styles I practice and their own art better than the one history provides. However, it was around this time that many of the old forms and training methods were abandoned, so we may never know. And also, about Yang's learning through a crack in the wall: The Chinese say that there are "large" people in the world, those who already have the internal and quickly learn this kind of stuff. Maybe Yang was one of them. Maybe all it took was a nudge in the right direction.

Anyway, it's just one theory.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[GLW]

Actually, I did NOt misquote you.

Tamo's stuff ...from the older texts was probably closer to a combined method. you assumed the posture and then did the breathing. Many of the older Dao Yin methods were like this. The concepts of moving meditation or moving Qi gong is actually much more recent.

Even the old methods that DO move that I have researched are nowhere close to any concept of moving meditation that would be a foundation for Taijiquan. They more closely resemble the breathing techniques done in Hung Gar in horse stance....or the Ba Tuan Jin....

As for Sam....

Need we go down this road Again... I refrain from throwing stones your way as often as possible.

I have done direct research into this as opposed to he said she said.... The 'classics' that many quote so well...from English translations I might add, are often themselves not that classic. The people they are attributed to are often of questionable existence.

But...for arguments sake...suppose there WAS a Zhang Sanfeng...and suppose he really did create a method of moving meditation....

The Chen's put it together into Chen style..that begat Yang, Wu, Sun....etc...

The concepts of vacuum tubes are the precursors of transistors...and they are the precursors of integrated circutis and semiconductors. But....I would hardly say that the vacuum tube was the original transistor....

[jbmmaster]

Isnt that the Style they used in The movie Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon

[Water Dragon]

J.B.,
No. They used a lot of old legends in the movie to capture the "atmosphere" of old China. Wudang was famous for all of these legends, but, as far as I know, the choreagraphy in the movie had nothing to do with the movie. In fact, Taiji has never been traceable to Mt. Wudang at all. For that matter, neither have Hsing-Yi, Bagua, and Liuhebafa. The stories sound nice and give a sense of the esoteric to the "internal" arts, but that's all thet are are stories.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Sam Wiley]

GLW,
That was uncalled for. I prefaced and ended what I had to say with statements that said it was all theory, unlike others who present theory as fact during this same discussion. Whether you want to admit it or not, the "historical" approach is theory, as well, because no one knows what happened, and I have already given you the reason why. Now, I hate to be an a-hole about stuff like this, but I was trying to save Tsui a lot of trouble, since you delight in theoretical ball-busting when it comes to the history of Taijiquan.

Andre asked for information about Wudang Taiji and Chang San-feng, and I provided some, unlike others who were content to argue amongst themselves or else speak to him like a child and put him down for asking for more info on someone it is currently in style to bash publicly. Also, despite your numerous negative comments about the existence of Chang, you have yet to provide any of your supposed research on this forum, or even any concrete proof that he never existed beyond cryptically mentioning authors most here have never read without even quoting them, which is worse than he said she said because you don't even tell people what they said! And as for the Classics, you know for a fact that the one main line we were arguing about I translated directly from Chinese and the translation was just what you said was incorrect. Furthermore, when I translated it directly, you began arguing that the Classics were not valid because there is no proof as to who authored them and I simply said that I believed that Wang did, and Wang is another figure whose existence you like to debate.

Ed McGaa, Eagle Man, once said that the way to end war in present times was to do like in the old days and put the chiefs on the frontline. Put your chief on the frontline and end the debate once and for all.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice