Wudang Tai Chi

[Unfettered Palm]

"Hmmm, so in essence, what you're saying is that they created a wudan version of Tai-Chi, etc and called it wudan tai-chi. This is understandable. If I wanted my own version, I would do likewise. The Chinese Gov't has access to many Martial Artisits who can provide input. They already have standardized forms, so to combine methods from these is quite simple."

No, that is not what I said. I said that the wudang bagua and the xing yi were created by a wudang master off the blueprints of previous bagua and xing yi system. wudang taiji is the first formalized art of wudang. (In san feng pai it goes back 16 generations) I honestly don't care when or who created taiji, i only stated that zhang san feng is regarded as the founder of it in wudang and by people all around china. Most people that discredit wudang, i find, have never even been to china. because it is only now starting to open up in the west doesnt mean it is fake. It just means you should do more research. I like to see things for myself before i believe them but thats me. There are way too many B.S. artist, especially in martial arts, watering down systems or just trying to be business men off the name of something once thought special. Just because Shaolin is now a very popular tourist attraction doesn't mean that traditional shaolin arts are not taught any more. and in this country alone the spirit of shaolin is strong. If i am correct your art is considered shaolin. The same goes for wudang. there is real stuff and there is fake stuff. and that is with any style. --You should create your own form or at least do something to contribute your knowledge to your system. It shows personality, broadens the system, and helps it evolve.

"However your saying that,
"it is also held in High regard from common folk and the Chinese government." is not any indication of quality or authenticity. The Common folk are uneduacated, illiterate, non-Martial Artists, and the Chinese Government perpetuates myths, legends, and capitalizes on anything and everything they touch. Look at Shaolin-it is nothing more than a tourist trap, with guys dressed up as monks, just like Disney has people dressed up as Mickey and Donald. I already know of a guy who paid three grand to live and train at wudan, and he learned standardized wu-shu sets."


loop hole in wording--common folk, middle class and up to the government. I agree with you on the shaolin thing. and maybe wudang will be made into the next shaolin, but that is why it s starting to open up the doors. to get the real stuff out. its a shame that close minded people cant see this. There are kung fu practitioners that live on hua shan but there is no hua shan kung fu. but if it came out and was a respectable system created by someone who spent more than a week creating it, who are we to discredit it. Wudang has a complete system of fighting drills, applications, forms, weapons, medicine, qigong, meditation, blah blah you get the point. its a shame you are quick to implyu it is fake and government created. its too old to have been government created.


"In the Liang Dynasty (502-557AD) and Tang Dynasty(618-907AD) there were already techniques resembling Tai-Chi, called Thirty-Seven Postures, Post Heaven Techniques, and Nine Small Heaven.
Some records indicate that Zheng San-Feng was made an immortal figure to cover up the assination plot against Emperor Jian-We by Yong-Le. Yong-Le sent assasins all over China, claiming they were searching for the immortal Zheng San-Feng, and to further cover up his plot, and lies to the people, he commanded a Temple be built to honor Zheng in Wudan Mountain, thus Zheng and Wudan Mountain became legendary in China.
Wang Zong-Yue's Tai-Chi classics are well-known by Tai Chi practitioners. He sysetematically summerized the priciples of Taichi using the Yin-Yang theory, and was the first to call this Martial Art, Tai Chi Ch'uan.
Wang Zong-Yue is also credited for teaching General Jiang-Fa in the Later Ming Dynasty, who is also credited for teaching the art in Chen village.(Taijiquan Xiaoxu, written by Li Yi-Yu(1832-1892AD)."

the Chinese Government perpetuates myths, legends, and capitalizes on anything and everything they touch. -- you said it. why is your story valid?


"There doesn't seem to be any indication that there were any Martial Arts created at Wudan until recently, and most likely as a result of popularising the Temple and creating yet another means of tourism."

even yang jwing ming discusses wudang in some of his books. they werent written a hundred years ago but they werent written last month either. I doubt he is writing that on behalf of the chinese government either for the sake of tourism. There are other sources. I dont think you will believe me anyway, but thats good. do your homework.

"That being said, the forms taught at Wudan are quite beautiful and breathtaking, and they have collected quite a number of them as well as chi-kung exercises. Is it real? Sure. It's all real. If you create a form, it would also be real. So it is not exactly a hoax. But it is funny how all of a sudden Wudan forms, styles, sword sets are springing up all over the place, and there are training tours at Wudan.
Mark my words, the next flavor of the week will be Hua=Shan, and you will see Taoists coming out of the woodwork teaching all sorts of longevity chi-kung "secrets". The time is ripe for this. The Western public is finally getting concerned about health, nutrition, and longevity. Depak Chopra, Andrew Weil, and others have paved the way. It's like foreplay. I'm waiting for Taoist Pilates.
(if I were really smart, I'd keep this to myself and put out DVD's-look out Billy Blanks, here comes Tao-Bo!)"

Your on to something with Tao-Bo...lol. I agree with many things you have said. But Wudang is not fake as some might believe. not exactly a hoax, but your implying it is ...in a nice way. as i said there are many fakes out there that will try to cash in on the wudang name. This discussion has been very interesting, but i have no further interest on trying to prove the authenticity of wudang. I can speak only on san feng pai. which is the biggest traditional system to come out. (according to my knowledge so far). The academy on the mountain is san feng pai but I will not get into the politics about it. my master left teh academy and teaches at a school at the base of the mountain. he is still apart of their association, but does not agree with teh forms for sale idea, training tours and all that jazz. theres nothing wrong with making money but there are quite a few things that you can not buy either. those are the things that people dont know about. and thats whats real.
wow, these posts are getting longer...cant wiat to see your response..lol..

[fiercest tiger]

I wouldnt doubt that there is wundang martial arts but maybe its secretive and they do not want it to change like the west have destroyed alot of the old systems. Most people rule out a system cause they never have heard of it or seen it or its never been written about.


Why do you believe there is no Hua Shan martial arts are you including chi kung as martial arts related? Have you been and seen and lived in those mountains or just hear say?

cheers
Ft

[TenTigers]

FT-dn't be too quick to say that they got watered down by the westerners. There are many Chinese teachers who watered down their art, before it got into our hot little hands. And not only in the west,as there are quite a few in HK and Mainland as well. This is not a recent thing either. I have old issues of HK magazines that have total B,S, being perpetuated by Chinese "Masters"-just like the old man peddling the Buddha's Palm manual in 'Kung-Fu Hustle", if people want something, and want to believe in something, sometimes it's all you can do to convince them otherwise.
Unfettered-actually, I was not referring to your style or Sifu, but another person who claims to be a Wudan Taoist Master, who is simply teaching the PRC 48 move combined set, and the guys who taught my friend other standardised sets at Wudan. If you found someone who is the reall deal, mazel-tov.
So, what exactly does seng-feng pai mean? Why seng-feng, and not Zhang? If Zhang is the surname, wouldn't it be more proper to name it Zhang P'ai? as in Hung Gar P'ai?

[fiercest tiger]

Very true dude, i think it happens everywhere....the west just add more sh!t a art to destroy it thats all.

Can i buy the buddha palms from you?

FT

[shog]

All I know is that there is a wudang/taoist kung fu site on the web that practices many forms of kung fu including taijiquan.

The site is: http://www.wudang.com

Of course they teach and consult in other areas as well.


This link explains some things as well:

http://www.chiflow.com/html/Taijiquan_origins.htm

Wudang Kung Fu Tradition

Wudang Taijiquan is real enough for me.

[Unfettered Palm]

FT..
at this moment in time there is no formalized martial art that is from hua shan. there are many taoist arts there bieng that Taoist culture is quite popular there to say the least. not to say that there arent any masters there who practice martial arts, but they have not organized an art ther....yet...its just a matter of time... I have several friends who have spent time on hua shan, in cluding my master. I have not had the privelage of going there yet. I can't seem to get away from wudang. )

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Mate,

Hey, love to see some pics of wudang temples and mountains as well some pics of you training if you have any and like to send some please feel free to send to my email sifu@yaukungmun.com.au

regards
Garry

[shadowlin]

Our oral traditions say that the internal systems were created in Wudang.

Likely they were brought to Wudang and perfected, then lost, and brought back again in various forms.

Chang San Feng's contribution to the art notwithstanding, he did in fact write in the Tai Chi Classics, which you can read for yourself from various translations. He is the earliest to write on Tai Chi. Doens't mean he was the creator. But it is a fun story, and worth passing on in one's oral tradition. I like to use it because it makes things crystal clear for students, which may be why the legend was created if not for historical accuracy.

Anyhow, it's almost certain that the Chen family did NOT create tai chi, as it seems to be much older than their lineage.

There is a form in our system called the Buddhafist, which is not Tai Chi, but certainly a pre-cursor. Its origins are undoubtedly Buddhist (looking at the opening postures), but not neccesarily Shaolin. However, it would seem to suggest that the internal arts have been around almost as long as Shaolin 5 animals.

In another book, they claim that it was a woman at Shaolin that came up with moving meditation. That is also very possible. Women seem to "get" internal arts a lot faster than men. But I wouldn't place a bet on it (even if I could learn the outcome anyhow).

In the end, it doesn't seem to matter.

But let's not be naive and say that Wudang internal arts and martial arts developed completely separate from Shaolin, Chen Chou Kou, or the other temples... (especially Omei Shan). That just wouldn't make sense considering the mingling of peoples and philosophies.

[GeneChing]

Most scholars tend to think that the Zhang San Feng creation legend is just legend based upon a preponderance of evidence. However, the same beleif is held about Bodhidharma and Shaolin. Creation myths are only myths. They have an intrinsic value within their embedded symbolic lessons. Even if they are not true, it does not invalidate the practice. Many of the roots of Chinese culture have mythic origins - for example, some say Confucious was supposed to be twelve feet tall. Guan Gong was also supposed to be a giant of similar height, plus he came back from the grave as a ghost. These are myths. But just because they aren't fact, in no way implies that Confucianism or martial arts are invalid. It just says that our founders were creative. The Zhang San Feng appears in the Epitaph of Wang Changnan which is dated 1669 CE. That still gives Zhang San Feng over 300 years of history, even if faked. The ironic thing is that while some of your are pointing your fingers at the Chinese government, Epitaph of Wang Changnan is a thinly disguised attack on the Chinese Government. That's origins for you, and the nature of Chinese cultural research - it's like a Chinese box: each box contains another.

Speaking of Chinese boxes, what's interesting is that at Wudang, Zhang San Feng isn't the main deity. It's really all about Zhen Wu. After all, Wudang is named after Zhen Wu and he's a far more important figure in Chinese mythology. I think this is a classic example of how narrow most martial arts people are in their research. It's sloppy really, and shameful. If you're really interested in Wudang, Zhen Wu and Zhang San Feng, you should check out our Wudang Special (Sep/Oct 2002) and my cover story on The Chief Priest of Wudang Mountain, Taoist Grandmaster Zhong Yun Long.

[wudangzhang]

Tai Ji is originated from Infinity. It is the basis for all movement and stillness. It is the originator of the Two Extremes (Yin and Yang).

Tai Ji was formed from Infinity by separating Yin and Yang. Yin and Yang are the equal and opposite pair. Sometimes Yin stands for female and Yang stands for male. In Tai Ji, Yin represents stillness and Yang represents movement. The workings of the universe is based upon Yin and Yang.

In Tai Ji, there is stillness in movement and movement in stillness. The two are interconnected and should not be separated. Internal power is through control of the mind. Concentration of mind moves the internal energy prior to any external movement.

Taijiquan is not simply the exercise for elderly, which is perhaps what is known to Westerners. It is in fact a combination of Yin and Yang, Tai Ji and Infinity. It is an art requiring perfect control of mind. It integrates stillness and movement, from external to internal, from movement to stillness, from elementary to advanced, and merging stillness with movement. Taijiquan not only directs internal power to external movements, it combines the mind with breathing, resulting in good health and an art of combat applications.

There are 13 postures (8 hand/arm movements and 5 body movements) in Tai Ji. The 8 hand/arm movements: Beng, Lu, Ji, An, Zai, Lie, Zhou, and Gao. In simplified terms, they mean: ward off, pull back, push, press, oblique turning, twist, elbow strike, and shoulder strike. The 5 body movements are directional. They are: advance, retreat, shift to the left, shift to the right and stable equilibrium. The 13 postures are based on the 8 trigrams and 5 elements. Requirements include relaxing, body coordination, concentration of mind, and stillness in movement.

Taijiquan is a stepping-stone to Daoism. In Daoism, one has to train one’s behavior and mind. It is important to keep a peaceful mind. Through meditation, combining Yin and Yang, and stillness in movement, the internal power will flow through the whole body achieving the ultimate aim.

http://www.daoistkungfu.com/academy/Programs.html

[taai gihk yahn]

take your trolling somewhere else

[Scott R. Brown]

take your trolling somewhere else

How can a morally relative person care about someone trolling? Is it a Yin-Yang thing, or are you just relatively, morally relative?

[jack]

[QUOTE=wudangzhang;932609]Tai Ji is originated from Infinity. It is the basis for all movement and stillness. It is the originator of the Two Extremes (Yin and Yang).

Just becoz taiji has ying & yang theory doesn't meant it orginated from wudang.
U can find taoism, buddhism, confucianism etc books easily on the street.

[GLW]

Misleading ?

Can we translate that as "Bold faced LIE"