Wudang Tai Chi

[GLW]

Uncalled for...?

Never heard of tongue in cheek before I guess...that is what the capitalization of Again was to imply....

The difference between a theory and history is that with history, there is at least some attempt to systematize and scrutinize the information.

While there MAY be a grain of truth in every story told...there are also a hell of a lot of grains of false.

As for ow Andre was spoken to...it is amazing how people will respond to you if you come out and state 'theories' as if they are cold hard fact and your 'theories' fly in the face of the generally accepted scholarly research on the subject you expounding on. This is essentially what several posts around here have done.

Beyond 400 years back, things get pretty unclear and to be honest, EVEN if you could produce a link between Peking Man and Modern Day Taijiquan, there comes a point back there where you can say "This is where it really became the art that evolved into Taijiquan today." That point is probably much closer to the 200 year mark than anything that a mythical figure could give us...even if said mythical figure did in fact live and did in fact do some exercise or martial art...which is not at all clear..and in many searches, contraindicated.

The same thing happens with Shaolin. The true apex of Shaolin was probably back around the 1600's. From that point on, much of the fame of Shaolin came from the glory days before. The methods and 'secrets' were spreading around quite a bit. Yet people still cling to the stories. They cling so much that they will pay big bucks to go to Shaolin and get ripped off.

Now after Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, will the same thing happen with Wudang Shan?

My personal take on this...If you do one of the 5 main branches of Taijiquan and train correctly, great...you can lay claim to a known lineage.

If you do another type of Taijiquan...but train correctly, you are probably still doing Taijiquan but can't claim the lineage...beyond "my master said"

If you do the modern routines and train correctly, you have roots and can understand them.

If you do something else, do not follow basic principles, do not adhere to the same principles of ALL Chinese Martial Arts, then I don't know what you are doing and you can claim nothing.

If a person wishes to discuss theories...then you can couch the statements in theory form..."What about..." "One story is", etc... But beyond the basic fabric of the Chen to Yang to Wu to Wu to Sun stories the rest gets to be supposition.

Even the stuff put out by the Yang family on their stories I have trouble with... Folks don't even notice the contradictions in the New Testament much less Taijiquan histories...so I take it ALL with a grain of salt.

[Tsui]

First I would like to remind you all that at the begining of my first post I said "as correct as you can be about something that haappened that long ago". I would thing that in itself should have been enough to satisfy most.

GLW- How can you say you didn't misquote me? If I say that Shaolin had a history of meditaion in motion and you say that Chan is NOT moving meditation, clearly your inference is that I said that it WAS. While in the strictest definition this is not a misquote it sure has all the trappings.

Sam- I appreciate all that you said and I think we have as close as you can come to a meeting of the minds here. You mentioned a connection between Chang Sang Feng's Tai Chi (as opposed to Chen's) and the Yang ancestor, I hadn't heard that theory but it brings me to an interesting point. I have begun learning one of the Chang Sang Feng longer sets and it's physical resemblance to Yang style is simply ASTONISHING. I haven't run this thought by my Sifu yet, but I had been thinking that there must have been some additional source material there that didn't come directly from the Chen.

[Sam Wiley]

GLW,
Point taken. I understand where you're coming from, believe it or not. But at least put something in there that shows you are not insulting him. The statement about Yueh Fei and Lu Da was pretty harsh, whether or not you had your tongue in your cheek. Make sure you don't bite down on it, okay? ;)

Tsui,
I can't say that I totally believe that theory. However, it does fill in a couple of gaps in the history, even if the stuff is insubstantiated. There are some similarities between the Wudang Taiji I have learned so far and the Chen style as well, suggesting that if the Wudang stuff is real then the Chens may have borrowed from it, or else they both may come from a common ancestor. However, the most noticable similarities are found between the Yang style and the Wudang style. If you look at both the old and new Yang forms and compare them with the Wudang Shan forms, there are some startling similarities.

I also read somewhere that one theoretician thought maybe Yang Lu-chan knew he did not receive all that his master knew, and went to Wudang Shan in search of the rest. Some people say that Yang first taught the Chen style after his stint at Chen Chiagou and later returned to their village with his own set that they were less than happy with. I know that with the Wudang stuff I have learned, only the first 4 forms at most were ever shown to outsiders, and usually not even that many. It is possible that Chen was never taught more than that, or else did not want to show Yang the other 8 sets in keeping with the tradition. My own teacher was shown the first 4 by his teacher, and after his death had to go to Wudang Shan for the rest, and he had to beg for almost a decade through letters and other correspondence before they would allow him to come. I don't know whether or not his teacher knew the rest, but I think he did because there are some training methods he taught my teacher that look as if they were taken right out of the other 8 forms.

Anyway, this one theory goes that when Yang returned from Wudang Shan, he brought Push Hands with him, or else had invented it. There are several proto-push hands methods that come from Wudang Shan, some bearing strong resemblence to push hands in its modern form. If this theory, that Yang went to Wudang Shan himself, is true, it is quite possible that he returned with these precursor methods, and later on they developed into what we know today as Push Hands.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[GLW]

Tsui
"If I say that Shaolin had a history of meditaion in motion and you say that Chan is NOT moving meditation, clearly your inference is that I said that it WAS. While in the strictest definition this is not a misquote it sure has all the trappings."

The inference you made was that Shaolin methods were as you claim them to be...moving meditation.

The documented versions of these methods MOVE to a posture...and then like Yoga, hold the posture and breathe and meditate. This is a far cry from moving meditation. I am taking your logical inference and conclusion...so, if you say STRICTEST sense, maybe I am slightly misquoting you. But if you are referring to following your line of reasoning and quoting from the logical conclusion of your words...I am not.

The methods employed by the Shaolin temple for meditation back that far are NOT that drastically different from the Indian methods that came with Buddhism from India. They are vastly different from the moving methods of today.

It IS interesting to compare Yoga methods that have remained pretty unchanged for a good while to the Chinese methods that have changed and grown a lot over the last 400 years. Even the term Qi gong is only around 100 years old or less....

the real issue is that what you state as fact is after all supposition and oral versions of history. Couch them in that light and I have no problem. State them as undisputable fact and I will point out the inconsistencies....as I did.

To take from Confucius, the good student, you give 3 sides of the square and he deduces the 4th. Well, you gave 3 and I took your conclusion.

SO... I DID read your words...and followed your train of thought.

My words may have been a bit too dry in humor for many to catch...but that is the problem with tongue in cheek sarcasm....it is sometimes taken too seriously.

As for the statements about Yang Luchan and his travels...several months before Fu Zhongwen died, I had the opportunity to have a leisurely lunch and discussion with him and several others...he did almost all of the talking. The topics were the roots nad history of Yang Style Taijiquan...and he denounced the Wudang connection and other connections to other arts...especially the Wudang connection that has been put forth by many on the origins of the Yang Taiji straightsword...he was absolutely adamant about the LACK of connection there.... His history is not disputed by any of the Yang Family...and he was pretty much recognized as the most knowledgeable of his generation on those points...even while others maintained that their methods for doing the forms was more correct than his...(also disputable).

That combined with Tang Hao and Gu Luxing's research makes me doubt it strongly.

[Stumblefist]

That's golden peak temple. And the monks in particular have only one concern: enlightenment. They practice kungfu in the same way as they eat a plate of vegetables: it is disposable. they only care for the spiritual. And what do they say about Zhang San Feng, the guy who is SUPPOSED to have given them their kung fu. ...
"Well, i didn't see him."
and Emperor Zheng Wu?
"Well, i didn't see him either?
and their kungfu?
"modern style".
I spend a few months there, and anything is apparent is that the place sometime, somehow was WIPED TOTALLT CLEAN. At first, the ancient relics and god road etc is impressive, but after a while it begins to dawn, ... this place was wiped, even the government has dated EVERY ruin with exactly the same (ficticious) date.
Only one impressive record remains: 6 large oils near the monks quarters in golden peak. That record (600 years old )shows the popular use of the straight sword and several postures we see in modern wushu.
As for tracing lineages: the taiji people of wudang (commercial schools) want to want claim wudang as the source of taiji and... the chen and Zhao Bao of Henan discalim it. All have the reason of MONEY-GREED to claim so as to get students etc.
From seeing how the source record was wiped in both areas, and how everything remains really localized in china and ancient china. i tend to believe the separate evolution ideas. Henan did not take fronm Hubei. It is more likely, there were some primitive exercises at wudang and later they took fom Henan in the modern era.
BTW, also there is no source record or even gravesite for the founder of Chen style in chenjiagou, only a commenorative plague in Chen xiaowang's school.
BTW, in Chenjiagou it was very funny, every time i asked somebody's name they said : "Chen", what else! finally i met , guess what .. "Yang". ;)

[TenTigers]

Does anyone know about this form? I have a friend who is learning it from a "Taoist Master" named Tseng? Supposedly from Wu Dang, yet he is about in his thirties, he has been in this country for about ten years, and Wu Dang hasn't been teaching until recently. I have heard this set might actually be the PRC's 48 movement combined form. However, the guy seems to know his stuff very well, nionetheless. I was wondering that although it might be wonderful-is it what it is claimed to be. or is that simply marketing for the western audience?

[fiercest tiger]

I saw a VCD of a wu dong Taiji performed by a Taoist master and i really enjoyed this type of Taiji. It was somewhat faster in his moves but flowed well and looked like he never lost the connection of chi whilst doing the form.

I dont know if its the same guy but if it is then that is a pretty good form i think.

FT

[Unfettered Palm]

Greetings,
TenTigers--It is true that Wudang opening it's doors is quite recent-early 1980's. T'seng is Wudang but practices other things also. he has videos for non-Wudang subjects so-- I can not say if its a prc form. He seems to be mostly about health from what i know, which is not much, about him.
There are eight main branches/gates, that make up the Wudang system. Taiji is one of those branches. Under the Taiji branch there are 15 forms. This is just in the San Feng Pai. There are many lineages that derive from Wudang so it makes it difficult when you hear a person saying they practice Wudang Taiji. The next question should be "what lineage or sect?" Its like asking someone "what style do you study?" and the reply bieng, "Shaolin." ....yeah.......thanks......
Granted shaolin has been studied by more people and is more popular, but the effect remains the same. My KF brother who is in Fujou is also a wudang disciple and is currently learning Tzi ren men--they practice Wudang Taiji and its not like ours so...
Fiercest tiger--The Wudang practioners on the VCD's are a different system of Wudang then us. Was the form you saw almost forever long? the one I saw is rather long. Plumpub.com has a wudang esoteric sect survey with (if it is) the same guy your talking about (san feng taiji) doing several of their styles forms. interesting and impressive.
From my understanding--San Feng Pai is the original lineage which traces itself back to Zhang San Feng. The other sects came from within SFP.
-Zi Zheng-

[TenTigers]

Unfettered Palm. does Wudang also have Hsing=Yi, and BaGua as well?

[Unfettered Palm]

Ten Tigers,
Xing Yi and Bagua are part of the 8 branches also. They were created by someone within the last 5 Generations of San Feng Pai. heres a list of the 8 branches:
ba xian
Bagua
Xing Yi
Taiji
xuan men
long hua
jiu gong
liu he ba fa
Baji
I know some wudang practitioners who are not san feng pai and they practice different lineages of bagua such as chen ting hua or yin.

[TenTigers]

I don't understand-Hsing-Yi Ch'uan and BaGua were not created nor were they developed in WuDan, there is also no evidence of Chang Seng-Feng creating Tai=Ch'i. I don't know about Liu Ho Pa Fa. Why are these systems taught in Wudan, and whay are they suddenly claiming some sort of lineage? How did this occur? Could you elaborate on the histories of these styles, where they came from, and how they got to be taught at Wudan? This does not seem correct.

[QuaiJohnCain]

WuDang is fake. Period.

[Unfettered Palm]

Ten Tigers, you said--I don't understand-Hsing-Yi Ch'uan and BaGua were not created nor were they developed in WuDan,"

-No one at wudang, nor i, ever said they were-

You said--"there is also no evidence of Chang Seng-Feng creating Tai=Ch'i. "

Your absolutely right. but theres also no proff theres a god who created the earth and...well you know the rest. But a whole lot of people say he did. and at Wudang and many other places, magazines, people, etc., they like to believe it. it isn't hurting anyone so, why not? BUT, theres a text that is quite old and it reveals zhang san feng as bieng the creator of taiji. I do not know all that much info but i will look for the exact info. the text is older than chen style so it eliminates the thought of Chen style as bieng the creator--I AM NOT SYAING THIS IS TRUE SO CHEN STYLISTS DONT EVEN BOTHER HOPPING IN ON THIS ONE :O)

You said--"I don't know about Liu Ho Pa Fa."

Neither do i

You said--"Why are these systems taught in Wudan, and whay are they suddenly claiming some sort of lineage? How did this occur?"

I or anyone at Wudang for that matter, has never claimed that bagua or xing yi were created at wudang and no one there is claiming lineage to them. I only said they are part of our system. the bagua and xing yi in our system are...WUDANG bagua and WUDANG xing yi. they were created using WUDANG movement, theory and principles.


You said--" Could you elaborate on the histories of these styles, where they came from, and how they got to be taught at Wudan? This does not seem correct."

I do not know who created them but I would guess it was a master(s) within the last five generations bieng that bagua is only a few centuries old. I believe but am not sure that xing yi is even newer. I have not done much research on xing yi but I thought Sun Lu Tang was the originator of it. as far as bagua goes, I believe that Dong Hai Chuan is regarded as the originator. Chen Ting Hua and Yin Fu were his top two disciples, as I am led to believe. They are taught there because some master got inspired liked bagua and maybe the same guy or a different one, not even in the same time period, thought Wudang should have it's own form of these arts. lets face it, there are off shoots of many arts- it doesnt mean they should be regarded as less worthy--just different. and all the forms that everyone practices were created by someone. I have heard from many people that Wudang is a fake but It seems to have everything that makes up a complete system. Fighting apllication and drills. forms. medicine, iron skills, qi gong, meditations, taoist yoga. There are many schools in China that claim to teach wudang but they do not. they teach standardized sets. but there are masters and schools on and around Wudang that teach traditional material. remember, Wudang has over 70 habitable mountain ranges. there are practitioners all over. and in Shi Yan (the major city of Hubei) there are seperate Wudang Organizations/federations that are seperate from us (San Feng Pai) You know how politics goes in the martial arts circles. it is no different in China or any where in the world for that matter. San Feng Pai was the first to open it's doors though. Bottom line. so to some it might seem like B.S.-all of a sudden this system comes out of nowhere. it does seem skeptical, but its real. Go To China and see for yourself. it is also held in High regard from common folk and the Chinese government.
Hope this cleared up a bit--look forward to hearing your response Ten-

[TenTigers]

Hmmm, so in essence, what you're saying is that they created a wudan version of Tai-Chi, etc and called it wudan tai-chi. This is understandable. If I wanted my own version, I would do likewise. The Chinese Gov't has access to many Martial Artisits who can provide input. They already have standardized forms, so to combine methods from these is quite simple. However your saying that,
"it is also held in High regard from common folk and the Chinese government." is not any indication of quality or authenticity. The Common folk are uneduacated, illiterate, non-Martial Artists, and the Chinese Government perpetuates myths, legends, and capitalizes on anything and everything they touch. Look at Shaolin-it is nothing more than a tourist trap, with guys dressed up as monks, just like Disney has people dressed up as Mickey and Donald. I already know of a guy who paid three grand to live and train at wudan, and he learned standardized wu-shu sets.
In the Liang Dynasty (502-557AD) and Tang Dynasty(618-907AD) there were already techniques resembling Tai-Chi, called Thirty-Seven Postures, Post Heaven Techniques, and Nine Small Heaven.
Some records indicate that Zheng San-Feng was made an immortal figure to cover up the assination plot against Emperor Jian-We by Yong-Le. Yong-Le sent assasins all over China, claiming they were searching for the immortal Zheng San-Feng, and to further cover up his plot, and lies to the people, he commanded a Temple be built to honor Zheng in Wudan Mountain, thus Zheng and Wudan Mountain became legendary in China.
Wang Zong-Yue's Tai-Chi classics are well-known by Tai Chi practitioners. He sysetematically summerized the priciples of Taichi using the Yin-Yang theory, and was the first to call this Martial Art, Tai Chi Ch'uan.
Wang Zong-Yue is also credited for teaching General Jiang-Fa in the Later Ming Dynasty, who is also credited for teaching the art in Chen village.(Taijiquan Xiaoxu, written by Li Yi-Yu(1832-1892AD).

There doesn't seem to be any indication that there were any Martial Arts created at Wudan until recently, and most likely as a result of popularising the Temple and creating yet another means of tourism.
That being said, the forms taught at Wudan are quite beautiful and breathtaking, and they have collected quite a number of them as well as chi-kung exercises. Is it real? Sure. It's all real. If you create a form, it would also be real. So it is not exactly a hoax. But it is funny how all of a sudden Wudan forms, styles, sword sets are springing up all over the place, and there are training tours at Wudan.
Mark my words, the next flavor of the week will be Hua=Shan, and you will see Taoists coming out of the woodwork teaching all sorts of longevity chi-kung "secrets". The time is ripe for this. The Western public is finally getting concerned about health, nutrition, and longevity. Depak Chopra, Andrew Weil, and others have paved the way. It's like foreplay. I'm waiting for Taoist Pilates.
(if I were really smart, I'd keep this to myself and put out DVD's-look out Billy Blanks, here comes Tao-Bo!)

[fiercest tiger]

10 Tigers,

Isnt the founder of LHBF from hua shan?

ft