Spinoff: Unarmed vs. Knife (v1.2)

[Knifefighter]

Since the unarmed vs. knife thread (original thread]) has now moved into the flamethrowing segment of the program, this is a spinoff back into the realm of techniques and applications.

This is a clip that is representative of some pretty realistic training for empty-hands vs. the knife:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWQfgwuOAxo

These were my comments after viewing the clip:

THAT is realistic training and pretty much the way it goes down. While these guys aren’t world beaters in terms of technique, they are spot on with their training and they will get better with time, especially if they learn some grappling and groundfighting principles. Good to see others doing pressure testing.

This is exactly the type of alive training I have been advocating. This is what you need to do to pressure test your stuff to see what works and what doesn’t. If you have not done training just like this but are espousing empty hand vs. knife techniques, you are living in a bubble. I'd be very surpised if the "deadly strikes/break their bones/crush their throats/throw on a chi na hold" crowd has done this type of training.

Anyone who wants to increase their chances of handling a knife attack should watch this video and emulate this type and intensity of training.

Good stuff… Kudos to these guys.

This thread is for those who are training in the same "live" manner as shown in the above clip.

While an unarmed encounter against a knife will often lead to injuries and, sometimes, even death, this type of training can help to develop responses that will increase the probability of “dying less often”. If you are training this way, you will find certain techniques and tactics work better and more consistently than others.

For those of you training in this “alive” manner, which specific things have you found have worked better for you (things you feel would give you a better chance of survival/minimal damage) and which things have you found to be less effective (increase the probability of getting you killed or seriously injured)?

[neilhytholt]

Instead of a bunch of clueless CMA people arguing about knife defenses, why don't you guys attend a seminar from some people who know what they're doing?

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...956#post691956

[Knifefighter]

There are a probably a couple of people who post here that are might be training in this manner. Those people are probably not clueless and those are the people towards whom this thread is directed.

And, yes, Sayoc kali seems to be a good system from my experience. Maybe a little too overboard for one living in modern society and wishing to avoid problems with law enforcement, IMO... but that is a separate thread, and not what this one is about.

[David Jamieson]

Since the unarmed vs. knife thread (original thread]) has now moved into the flamethrowing segment of the program, this is a spinoff back into the realm of techniques and applications.

This is a clip that is representative of some pretty realistic training for empty-hands vs. the knife:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWQfgwuOAxo

These were my comments after viewing the clip:



This thread is for those who are training in the same "live" manner as shown in the above clip.

While an unarmed encounter against a knife will often lead to injuries and, sometimes, even death, this type of training can help to develop responses that will increase the probability of “dying less often”. If you are training this way, you will find certain techniques and tactics work better and more consistently than others.

For those of you training in this “alive” manner, which specific things have you found have worked better for you (things you feel would give you a better chance of survival/minimal damage) and which things have you found to be less effective (increase the probability of getting you killed or seriously injured)?

I agree. that clip shows the kind of intensity required. I have several clips of myself and others doing training parallel to what is in that clip.

In one, I have a friend who takes it over the top crazy monkey swinging screaming attacking his training partner during a session, it's funny in some respects, but that is what really happens.

wooden and aluminum knives have bruised me up pretty good from this type of training and have given me a respect for the knife that I didn't have before in a non pressure environment.

this kind of stuff, dog brothers and alive training like it are by far the most realistic training one can do as opposed to compliant drills and such.

Neil, the kali stuff is about how to use a blade offensively or against another blade. There will be good stuff in it I am sure. But offensive and defensive are different training paths.

[Knifefighter]

wooden and aluminum knives have bruised me up pretty good from this type of training and have given me a respect for the knife that I didn't have before in a non pressure environment.

So which techs, strategies, tactics have you found to be workable and which haven't?

[MasterKiller]

From that clip, it looks like the difference in training is getting stabbed 30 times instead of 60 times.

[Knifefighter]

From that clip, it looks like the difference in training is getting stabbed 30 times instead of 60 times.

This thread is for a technical discussion about what works and what doesn't and is for those who train in this manner.

Maybe I need to start a separate thread just for comments?

On second thought... nevermind. Let's throw the comments in here too for now.

[neilhytholt]

If you really think that Sayoc Kali is just about offense then you really are even more clueless than I first thought.

[Knifefighter]

Moving this here from the other thread:

The comments on the vid i posted pretty much gave me the insight i was looking for, HOWEVER, there seems to be a lack of full committment on the defenders actions( i guess so as not to seriously hurt the other because after all it is a demo that is designed to come as close as possible to the real confrontation)

I think the defenders who did not seem to be giving full commitment were just overwhelmed by the knife attack. When I do this type of training, I have found that the defender has to defend against the knife, or risk being "killed". By doing so, he loses much of his offensive capability.

By default, he has to stay in this relative defensive mode because if he does decide to launch offensively, he opens himself up to the overwhelming advantage of the blade.

Its tough Its tough though since we just cant all go around breaking each others arm and joints and such. and we seem to want to pull our attacks to the face or vitals and for good reason.

That’s why they are wearing headgear and cups. Headgear, cups, and maybe some additional eye protection allows the defender to go all out. With just these three things, you can pretty much do any technique as hard as you want.

[Knifefighter]

If you really think that Sayoc Kali is just about offense then you really are even more clueless than I first thought.

I think he means that the main focus of Sayoc (in terms of the knife), like all FMA styles, is the use of the blade.

In Sayoc, 85-95% of blade time will be spent training in using a blade, rather than fighting empty-handed vs. one.

[neilhytholt]

I think he means that the main focus of Sayoc, like all FMA styles, is the use of the blade.

In Sayoc, 85-95% of blade time will be spent training in using a blade, rather than fighting empty-handed vs. one.

They have a lot of drills that are empty handed versus a blade. I haven't seen any CMA that trains specifically for this beyond very basic techniques.

Anyways, I'm a bit tired of this. I've decided that all of you and me are just wankers who shouldn't be posting during working hours.

[Knifefighter]

They have a lot of drills that are empty handed versus a blade. I haven't seen any CMA that trains specifically for this beyond very basic techniques.

Exactly... however, I think there might be one or two here who train in other, more realistic methods.

I've decided that all of you and me are just wankers who shouldn't be posting during working hours.

Very true... but I'm my own boss, so I can post as much as I want.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I have the 3 of 9 Vital Template for Sayoc Kali and I'm really not impressed. Maybe it's my training with WWII combatives and the stipped down approach but it seems to me that if you've got a knife, just defang the snake and go home! I thought there was too much trapping and too much intricate cutting and patterns (something that is common in many FMA)

[Knifefighter]

Iit seems to me that if you've got a knife, just defang the snake and go home! I thought there was too much trapping and too much intricate cutting and patterns (something that is common in many FMA)

I like their multiple knives approach.
I've seen a clip of them stickfighing NHB with no protective gear at all.
One of their instructors did a kick a$$ job with the stick at a Dog Bros gathering.


As far as the "too fancy" stuff in FMA, I agree.
That's why for empty-hand vs. stick, I prefer the Red Zone, STAB, and Dog Catcher approaches better.... most of the BS has been taken out through pressure testing.

[WinterPalm]

My experience in training has given me several insights. Fortunately we've been working on knife defense every class for over a month at this point and I've had a lot of time to experience committed attacks and the results of the type of training albeit with a little less swearing than the clip above. (This isn't to say I've got the answers or that a month of intensive practice is enough but it's been on my mind a lot).

I seperate the approaches of knife fighting against myself in several ways.

Attacker:
1.) FMA type quick little slips and slashes from all sorts of angles followed by attacks.
2.) Using the open hand to grab, fake, distract.
3.) Sewing machine type attacks from one or many angles.
4.) Big aggressive angled attacks...more like an untrained swinging haymaker. (A fellow security guard was stabbed with an upward pointed blade swung right to left like a slice but with the intention of stabbing my friend. He got out of the way and turned but took a decent cut to the midsection).
5.) And based on all of those: Tight or Loose attacks...some attacks are one or the other out of the necessity of the attackers purpose.

Defense:
0.) Run!!!!!!!
1.) Control the blade.
2.) You will get cut (Mindframe and reality here...you might not get cut...but chances are you will just hopefully not too bad).
3.) Going to the ground is your best bet for control.
4.) No technique is set in stone.
5.) Environment!

Through training I consider these things and my Sifu has addressed basic ways of defending these different attacks.

Put into the mix in a full contact environment.
1.) Control the knife arm and disrupt sight, breathe, balance while maintaining some form of control over the knife hand.
2.) Get them down and rain shots in from whatever source and angle. To use wrestling or jiujitsu terminology...sidemount on the knife side preferrably with a knee on the knife arm near elbow and wrist, free hand, (if one) control the neck, eyes... when the chance provides itself, knees, elbows, fists, whatever to the face neck, head region.
Short range leg attacks and trips are good when in conjunction with knife control. I do not favour the push-kick, side kick approach as I train with a crafty fast guy and it never goes over too well.
Worry more about the knife hand and take a couple shots from the other arm if you have to.
Do not give up the arm with the knife! Persist.
Often on the ground when trying to perform an armbar I find opponents slipping about and snakey in their movements and using strikes to the head, if given the chance seem to work.
Domination and relentless spirit is imperative.

Those are some of my observations.

Good thread and logical extension from the other one!

I know I don't have internet authority to change the path a bit but does anybody agree that you must learn the first small steps before progressing towards full out contact??