Involved in arrest this morning.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

You are just taking it as being non-abrasive because it starts out with as a cop

lets take a look at some quotes from both of them:

First off, good on you .... I don't have a problem with the fact that you took action, but I might have a problem with the way you did it. ..... I think you should've hung back for a second and put in a quick 911 call before stepping in, just so you know you already have a unit rolling .... Anyway, hindsight is always 20/20 and at the end of the day you helped an innocent person and got two ****heads off the streets. So good job. .... As much as I hate being a monday morning quarterback regarding an incident I did not even witness, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents. You sound like a good guy and I just don't wanna see you get killed in the future simply because you were doing the right thing in the wrong way.

as opposed to ....

What he did was highly irresponsible, in that he escalated it, and did it in a totaly inept, and reckless manor that very likely could have gotten them both killed. He for being dumb enough to play out his MMA fantasies in the real world, and her for being the witness to his resulting murder....
....... His biggest mistake was his incompetance in engageing. ....but he didn't, he did something very stupid, and foolish. .... The real world in NOT the Octagon. You MMA freaks need to learn that.

you catch more flys with honey than you do with vinager. then again, i guess if you rip their wings off they'll eat whatever you give them.

... after a little while posting on this forum one thing really stands out:

What you guys think the person is about is more important than what the person actually says.

this is absolutely true. i didn't bother pointing out the fact that i thought you were acting like a d1ck, but i like royal dragon and i just thought he should know.

[rogue]

-i wish it were that simple. it always take time for all your back-up to arrive. by the time "overwhelming force" shows up, you might already be shot dead and the suspect long gone.

Dragon Rage, I have to ask at risk of sounding like a complete a-hole; Where does the victim (if there is one) figure into this?

[Oso]

been busy...not reading all these posts...

but, yea, at least by NC law, you overstepped your legal right to assist someone else....but, that's the legal schmeogel...

I think you should cap his ass next time.

there is a line around me...tis about 24" off my centerline in any direction...don't cross it physically.


but, I'm getting extremely short tempered in my old age...and I don't care.

[BigPandaBear]

As a father and a husband, I gotta say that ST did the right thing. Certainly it wasn't perfect, but ****, the guy prevented a crime, and we all should be proud that someone used their martial skills for more than just winning a freakin' trophy, or yakking it up on an internet message board. Looks like his MMA training served him just fine.

To those who said he should have settled things differently, I know that if someone was harrassing my wife or daughter, I'd step in without a second thought. If he grabbed my wife or daughter in any way, I'd also lay their arses on the pavement, and I'd question any MAN who wouldn't do the exact same thing. We can't always carry pepper spray and cellphones. Afterall, that's why we're doing MA in the first place; To defend ourselves and the ones we love.

Yeah we could potentially die in the process, but people die all the time even after giving the perp exactly what he wants. Sometimes the perps just want to kill someone because they're freaking sociopaths who have no respect for human life.

Look at the hijacked planes on 9/11. 3 of the planes complied with the hijackers to avoid getting killed. They all died anyway. The people on the 4th plane decided not to become victims and took matters in their own hands.

You can either die like a warrior or die like a victim. If you're going to die anyway, might as well make it count for something.

[Radhnoti]

Where I'm from the fact that he threatened AND there were two of them would probably make a SHOOTING justified if the lady had a firearm. When they threatened THEN touched her/the purse isn't that an assault? Obviously so, since the police took them off instead of releasing them and taking ST, right? Anyone CAN sue for anything...but I'd not be especially worried that a jury of my peers would take the bad guy's side in this case.
'Course JP would have a better handle on this than myself...but had I been ST I wouldn't be too worried in my area.

[chud]

As a father and a husband, I gotta say that ST did the right thing. Certainly it wasn't perfect, but ****, the guy prevented a crime, and we all should be proud that someone used their martial skills for more than just winning a freakin' trophy, or yakking it up on an internet message board. Looks like his MMA training served him just fine.

To those who said he should have settled things differently, I know that if someone was harrassing my wife or daughter, I'd step in without a second thought. If he grabbed my wife or daughter in any way, I'd also lay their arses on the pavement, and I'd question any MAN who wouldn't do the exact same thing. We can't always carry pepper spray and cellphones. Afterall, that's why we're doing MA in the first place; To defend ourselves and the ones we love.

Yeah we could potentially die in the process, but people die all the time even after giving the perp exactly what he wants. Sometimes the perps just want to kill someone because they're freaking sociopaths who have no respect for human life.

Look at the hijacked planes on 9/11. 3 of the planes complied with the hijackers to avoid getting killed. They all died anyway. The people on the 4th plane decided not to become victims and took matters in their own hands.

You can either die like a warrior or die like a victim. If you're going to die anyway, might as well make it count for something.

Well said, I agree 100%!!!

[ChinoXL]

okay.. I don't know how this became a flamewar however
A. YES he could of gotten killed
B. It takes balls to do what he did
If you flame him you are very ignorant about the real world.. that extra second that he makes the call the lady could of gotten beaten and ended up in the hospital; (real street fights last a good 30 seconds) they would just beat her take her purse and RUN .. and IF he did not save her it would of turned into something like this http://comegetyousome.com/video/brutal_mugging.wmv it's a little brutal however this is the real world and I AM SHOCKED THAT alot of you guys are not aware of these kinds of situtions. I live in NY and things like this happen all the time; yes i know a black belt who tried to save a girl in the ally and ended up getting shot and now he's paralyzed waist down however.. since he got off good; why not congratulate him he deserves more then a pat on the back. And ANOTHER IMPORTANT THING: crackheads will do anything for a buck.. imagine wht they woulda done to that poor girl if he did not save her

[BigPandaBear]

okay.. I don't know how this became a flamewar however
A. YES he could of gotten killed
B. It takes balls to do what he did
If you flame him you are very ignorant about the real world.. that extra second that he makes the call the lady could of gotten beaten and ended up in the hospital; (real street fights last a good 30 seconds) they would just beat her take her purse and RUN .. and IF he did not save her it would of turned into something like this http://comegetyousome.com/video/brutal_mugging.wmv it's a little brutal however this is the real world and I AM SHOCKED THAT alot of you guys are not aware of these kinds of situtions. I live in NY and things like this happen all the time; yes i know a black belt who tried to save a girl in the ally and ended up getting shot and now he's paralyzed waist down however.. since he got off good; why not congratulate him he deserves more then a pat on the back. And ANOTHER IMPORTANT THING: crackheads will do anything for a buck.. imagine wht they woulda done to that poor girl if he did not save her

Good post right there.

Bottom line is that you gotta pick your battles. If you walk into a situation where YOU are the only one who can save another person's life, it falls upon YOU to do something about it. Certainly if you can avoid conflict, avoid it. However there's going to be times when only violence can end violence, and there's going to be times where you're going to get hurt or even killed and there's not a thing you can do about it.

That video of that old lady getting beat down by a mugger really gets my blood boiling.

[Judge Pen]

I would have interpreted the situation as an assault on the woman. From what was described in ST's posts, she would have had an objective and reasonable fear from bodily harm. Intimidation is assault if one objectively and reasonably could think that they will carry out the threat. If she, as the person subjected to the assault, could have defended herself then a third-party (ST) could also have legally used reasonable force to have defended her. Now this may differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and it is certainly open to interpretation, but I think he was legally justified in doing what he did. The only question would be did he use more force than was justified under the circumstances?

[rogue]

The only question would be did he use more force than was justified under the circumstances?

That's the $64,000 question. Depending on the force a person uses what is the potential damage of knee riding a persons neck? Is it an illegal technique in the ring and if so why?

Look at the hijacked planes on 9/11. 3 of the planes complied with the hijackers to avoid getting killed. They all died anyway. The people on the 4th plane decided not to become victims and took matters in their own hands.

The people on those planes followed the conventional wisdom of the time, which was to sit tight and wait for negotiations or Delta to get you out. The people on the 4th plane knew what the hijackers were trying to do, the others did not. I'd guess you would have sat tight also if you didn't know.

[Royal Dragon]

The only question would be did he use more force than was justified under the circumstances?

Reply]
This is an interesting question. based on what he said, they grabbed her purse already, but had NOT touched her. It was still a purse snatch, and not a battery. Assult maybe. If they were threatening, or actually layed hands on her personally, then he was justified in what he did.

[Judge Pen]

The only question would be did he use more force than was justified under the circumstances?

Reply]
This is an interesting question. based on what he said, they grabbed her purse already, but had NOT touched her. It was still a purse snatch, and not a battery. Assult maybe. If they were threatening, or actually layed hands on her personally, then he was justified in what he did.

It doesn't matter. If someone is grabbing your purse and is attempting to intimidate you by threatening you then its an assault. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL IT BECOMES A BATTERY TO DEFEND YOURSELF. You can be justified in defending yourself or your property. You can reasonably expect a woman to fear that they will do more. You can't assume that they will leave you alone; you should be afraid if you're a little old lady.

Rouge, he wasn't in the ring. It doesn't matter what is legal in the ring, just what force was justified to protect the woman and yourself.

[David Jamieson]

"should the person not give a flying donut about the authourity image, they will resort to overwhelming force."

-i wish it were that simple. it always take time for all your back-up to arrive. by the time "overwhelming force" shows up, you might already be shot dead and the suspect long gone.


"if a cop isn't there, and you stop a situation, you have acted correctly."

-don't you think that's a bit too much of a blanket statement? thats like saying that as long as you win a fight, there's nothing you could've done better.

Overwhelming force can be one on one. It is escalation and the LEO will meet any escalation. For instance, the perp is beligerent, the LEO will assert the reality of teh situation. The perp escalates with physical struggle, the LEO will subdue with measured force, Ie hold them, lock them, press them down, the perp pulls a knife, teh LEO pulls a gun, the perp pulls a gun, the LEO pulls a gun and so on. IN the end, there are more LEO's than perps. The LEO rule is always to call for backup at the sign of any escalation is it not? Or even the idea that there may be escalation. Overwhelming force is a solution. How many times do we see paramilitary squads raidingg homes that have a couple of sleepy drug dealers in them? This is overwhelming force that is used as a deterent to any reprisal from any perp.


If a cop isn't around, and you see harm being done is it not within ones social responsibility to do what they can to ensure that harm isn't done to teh innocent party? Cops aren't everywhere at all times, sometimes it's a truism taht there is never one there when you need one...as impossible as that would be anyway.

in st00's case, if it was me, the only thing I would have done different was to first call 911. I would have then made my moves beginning with a loud and strong verbal barrage followed by moving between the perps and the potential victim. If it came to violence, then so be it, I am unable to assume what the outcome would be, but doing the right thing always has an inherent risk and in my opinion, when faced with little other options, then it's a risk worth taking. Walking by is not an option and it is that apathetic attitude or fear which serves to crumble and decay the fibre and essence of a society.

If more people did random acts of kindness, the whole place would change. Too often people are just weakened by their own fear to act. I think part of this weakness is due to social conditioning of reliance and dependency, but taht's a whole other bag of potatoes.

[ShaolinTiger00]

The only question would be did he use more force than was justified under the circumstances?

You're kidding right? I hit the guy, put a shoulder into him and put him on his rump and then held him down. I didn't KO him, maim him, etc.

Sorry man, but that's about as nice as I get. God help him if that woman would have been my wife or mom.. I would have snapped! Then I would have chased down the other guy and f'ed him up!

[Judge Pen]

I didn't say that you USED more force then you should have; I'm saying that that's the question the lawyers etc will ask if one of these bozos tries to prosecute or sue. I doubt they will and if they do I dounbt that they have a prayer of recovery, but that's the questions they will ask.

It's common form unhurt plaintiffs to go to the right lawyer who knows the right doctor who runs up 3 or 4 thousand dollars of medical bills for "soft tissue" injuries. I see it often.