Intent or No Intent

[imperialtaichi]

When you play the piano, do you intend to play? Or do you just do? Do you have to think or does it just flow out naturally? Intent or no intent? Or intent-no-intent?

Sorry, I'll go and take my medications now...

Cheers,
John

[Scott R. Brown]

When we are beginners we learn following a specific, well defined method or procedure. We apply ourselves to the method using self-discipline, an act of will, INTENT. We strictly adhere to the form in order to learn the basics, intermediate and advanced principles and movements. We practice repetitiously until our body and mind internalize the principles and movements. The principles and movements are integrated into our being so to speak. Once the principles and movements are sufficiently internalized we have the ability to respond spontaneously according to the circumstance with NO-INTENT and unconstrained by form.

When the principles are internalized through years of study, application, and practice we have mastered the subject and are free to let go of the strict form or procedure for the purpose of application. This “letting go” is a mental condition that is manifested physically in our actions. If one is unable to make the transition from strict form to formlessness then they have not yet reached the highest skill. While some type of form is adhered too we are no longer bound by the form for the sake of the form. Response is without effort and even if the strict form is not adhered too there is no loss in effectiveness because the principles are applied according to the specific circumstance. This occurs spontaneously with NO-INTENT. It we attempted to conform our movements to the defined form we would be binding ourselves and we would be using INTENT.

When we are beginners WE serve the form, when we are masters the FORM serves us! That is, the form serves OUR purpose. We do not conform the circumstance to fit the form; the form spontaneously accomodates to the circumstance with no conscious effort. We use formless form! That is a form that is not specific, but universal in its application. It is a form that spontaneously occurs according the circumstance at the moment!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

When you play the piano, do you intend to play?

This is an interesting question.. When i play an instrument there is the intent to play, i don't mindlessly find myself playing without an intent to do so, yet.. as i understand the question, the act of making coherent sounds can be spontaneous and unsolicited.. where i intend to make music, the making of the music, as Scott points out, is not bound by an intention to follow prescribed forms, but.. is it not also a result of intention to abandon forms and seek the spontaneous expression? Given the range of choices from moment to moment, we choose (intend) to do a particular thing.. like choosing to play the piano rather than to go jogging..

Now, suppose a situation is imposed upon you.. a confrontation, an obstacle to a prior intention, etc.. something beyond our ability to foresee or intend/counter-intend.. in the instant of decision an intention is effected, i.e.: in a confrontation we intend to run away, or fight, or negotiate.. that intention may then turn quickly to a flow of sponatneous responses but, it begins as an intention.. My mentor would say that even in the most spontaneous conditioned responses the intention of years of training is manifested as the response and is no less a result of intention.. simply that we intended to evolve into a state of "no-intention".. I, personally, think that "intention" is a more basic and general concept than to assign it to nuanced actions like the specifics of music.. i see it more like the intention to play, the nuances of which are developed through the intention to discipline yourself toward a goal.. I do not discount spontaneity, it is my favored state of being, but i recognize that i choose/intend to attempt to live in that state..

Suppose i intend to meditate, and during the meditation i experience unintended and spontaneous sensations and insights.. are these not the result of the intention to meditate and the intention to discipline myself to develop healthy meditation methodologies? At some level, we must accept that we are our own creators, that we are, ultimately, in charge of ourselves.. The inclination to believe that we are the beneficiaries of unintended wisdoms is a double edged sword, it is also used as an excuse for the undesirable traits that we manifest occasionally.. we set the stage and write the script, that we improvise from time to time is a condition that we have permitted through conscious intentions.. To imply that we create beautiful music spontaneously is an appropriate perspective, to imply that it wasn't intended seems less appropriate.. similarly, we might find that in a self-defense situation we applied too much force "in the heat of the moment", unintended but fatal for the opponent.. it is my assertion that our discipline was not appropriately intended, leaving us with either the poorly intended manifestation of our training OR, the possibility that we expressed a darker "intention".. It is difficult to accept that we are both light and dark, it is easy to believe that the darker aspects of our duality are unintended accidents.. they are not. Regardless of the spontaneous nature of an experience, we have set that stage through years of conscious intentions.. It is quite empowering to take responsibility for ALL that we do, to know "who you are".. It's one thing to acknowledge and embrace our "dark" side, but quite another thing to Live it...

Be well..

[imperialtaichi]

Hello TCBob and Scott,

When i play an instrument there is the intent to play, i don't mindlessly find myself playing without an intent to do so, yet.. as i understand the question, the act of making coherent sounds can be spontaneous and unsolicited.. where i intend to make music, the making of the music, as Scott points out, is not bound by an intention to follow prescribed forms, but.. is it not also a result of intention to abandon forms and seek the spontaneous expression?

Exactly what I mean. Without the intent to start the spark, there will be no flame. Yet interfering with the flame will dampen it. Further yet, without guiding the fire, the fire could burn wrongly and cause unforeseen damage.... hence the "intent-no-intent."

Cheers,
John

[Scott R. Brown]

Exactly what I mean. Without the intent to start the spark, there will be no flame. Yet interfering with the flame will dampen it. Further yet, without guiding the fire, the fire could burn wrongly and cause unforeseen damage.... hence the "intent-no-intent.

Now THAT is well put John!!

I kind of think of it as having the process so internalized that I may exercise my action without conscious effort. I have the intent to play a song, but without actually the necessity of requiring me to concentrate on doing so. It is the same process as walking and chewing gum at the same time. LOL!!

So when playing the guitar I may play a song without error, yet be holding a conversation with someone, or walking and talking with someone or any other combination of activities while by body is spontaneously, without conscious guidance, playing the guitar without error. Effortless, effort or intentless, intent! That is, intending without forcing the action to occur. I begin the process with the intent and perhaps intend for the action to continue, yet the action occurs “of itself” (tzu-jan), “without efforting’, (wu-wei)!!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Scott: LOL! TzuJanLi is my AOL screen-name.. Tzu-Jan as "spontaneous" and Li as "random order", like the grain in wood.. interesting that you would use that phrase, an Allan Watts favorite.. it is a bit like the "intent" powers the entirity of the action, no thought required.. intention becomes completion.. as the ancestors said, intention by-passes the mind and flesh, at high levels it is all that is required.. properly intended, it is done before the mind and flesh could even conceive it.. That is, of course, if you subscribe to the notion that intent supercedes thought, that it initiates "thought", and.. can actually by-pass thought, creating action ahead of thinking the action..

Be well..

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Bob,

I agree! When we train our mind through self-discipline or maybe we could say we train our brain, which is our mind’s interface with physical phenomena, we use specific methods to train ourselves to accommodate to a specific task with the purpose of transcending contrived effort.

It is not going against the flow of Tao to use self-discipline to condition our mind. Self-discipline is a natural ability/phenomenon, a natural function of the mind. It is a tool we use to get us from point A to point B. In the end we are to discard attachment to the method. This does not mean we no longer utilize a method, but the method does not rule us. We recognize the method as merely a tool we use and are not bound by its limits. This allows the spirit to motivate our actions rather than the contrived effort of a limited perspective.

Contrived effort inhibits the free flow of spirit in our thoughts and actions. Allowing the free flow of spirit is something that takes practice. This is due to the conditioning from our birth to contrive our thoughts and actions. This is understood in China and Japan and why the Masters use “specific means” (contrived methods) to train self-discipline with the purpose of transcending self-discipline. The Masters understood that we are all conditioned from birth to be bound by contrived behaviors; therefore they devised methods of transcending contrived behavior through the utilization of contrived behaviors. Start with what you know and are capable of doing and finesse the result from there. As a consequence, there are contrived methods such as: The Way of Tea, The Way of Calligraphy, The Way of the Sword, The Way of Tai Chi Chuan, etc. and simply the Way of the Way which itself utilizes contrived means to transcend our conditioning!

[TenTigers]

back to intention,'cause you guys seem to have gotten caught up in that whole "The tao that can be explained is not the real tao " trap, or is it crap? hmm...
anyway, on another forum, we were dicussing more crap...

Posted - Aug 18 2006 : 19:29:08
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Yi (intention) leads hei(ch'i) this is an old adage-where there is no intentuion, there is no chi.
ok, to demystify it as much as I can, anyone who has studied even a little Tai-Chi has probably experienced this. Let's say you take the move, 'Parting the wild horse's mane" and simply are taught the sequence. Ok, so you turn, step, pivot,extend the arms while moving the stance, yadda-yadda..right? The movements are simply movements-empty, without meaning. Sure, people will do the form slowly, and because their movements are calm, relaxed, focused, their mind becomes calm, relaxed, and focused.
They will feel these results , and the euphoria that accompanies this and proudly prolcaim."Yes, I can feel the chi!"
yeah, great. mazel-tov.
No intention, no chi. What they are feeling is simply their own bodies natural response-and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this.
Now..you learn the application-opponent strikes, you pivot,deflect and trap the strike,step into his stance,locking his arm,possibly a break, and uprooting him,he reacts, you roll it over for the second elbow break...etc. or whatever application you prefer.
NOW..having practiced this application-hands on, many, many times, and are able to perform it with reasonable skill...
you play yur form again. This time, when you do the moves, you are totally concious of what you are doing, you also visualize the movement, so that when you do the elbow break, you feel intent. Not stiffness, but sung, with conciousness. You will also feel something entirely different. You will feel this from your toes through yur body to your arms. Your conciousness will be there and your chi will be there. It is hard to put into words, so forgive me. Anyone who has done this will vouch for what I am saying. There is an entirely different feel within your body. Call it what you want.
Here's a second POV
when learning saam jien kuen(sanchin kata) or any iron body (gold bell) training, you are said to be cultivating wei-chi-guardian chi. This chi flows not in meridians so much as in the fascia and sub surface layers of the body and around the organs. As you absorb strikes, your yi or intent-or attention in this case,goes to the point of impact. Basically, all your conciousness goes there-which is natural-You're getting HIT.
Therefore, your chi flows to that point as well.
Liken this to the feeling you get when you get a hypodermic injection. You roll up your sleeve,the doctor swabs the area with the alcohol,youthen see him remove the sheath of the needle-and all your conciousness, your awareness, is focused in that one small spot on your arm, in expectation of the injection.
That is precisely the same feeling.
hmmmm, does this mean that if you develop it enough, you can prevent the needle from penetrating? Well, you guys go practice it and let me know.

so...intent? no intent?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Ten Tigers,

Where there is no intention, there is no chi.

This is not accurate. Chi is everywhere in your body and flows naturally according to its nature and the needs of the body. For a properly trained person Chi will be in abundance where and when it is needed spontaneously, without need for “conscious” focus to lead it. Conscious focusing of Chi is an exercise used for developing a skill, but not required during combat.

It is true the Chi follows intention, but this occurs as a natural consequence of attention regardless of whether it is being consciously led, focused, stored, etc. Chi may be collected, stored, led, focused or projected, but it is not absent just because one is not intending any of these. Neither are any of these conditions a requirement for an effective attack or defense.

As you absorb strikes, your yi or intent-or attention in this case, goes to the point of impact. Basically, all your consciousness goes there-which is natural-You're getting HIT. Therefore, your chi flows to that point as well.

If during combat your attention (conscious focus) is drawn to the areas where you are receiving impacts then your mind is not able to respond spontaneously and fluidly to the situation. Your mind becomes bound by the impacts you are receiving and will not be free to act fluidly with true focus on your intent. What you are describing is actually a weakness NOT a strength. If “all your consciousness goes there” then you could soon find yourself in a very vulnerable position. The condition that occurs is called “zuki” in Japanese. It is the moment where your attention or focus is distracted and at its weakest. At the moment when your focus is broken a superior fighter will attack and win decisively!

The idea is to train your mind so that NONE of your consciousness “goes there”. If your training is comprehensive and you have achieved the proper level of skill, then injury or fear of injury will not limit your responsiveness or draw your consciousness away from your true intent, which is to prevail. When your mind becomes bound up by focusing on your body you cannot respond spontaneously to the actions against you. In a REAL combat situation, you will feel little to no pain and NOT respond by focusing your Chi on the impacts you receive, but will project your Chi towards your intent. This projection towards your intent however is NOT a conscious effort. Chi projects as a natural response to your intent, that is the intent to strike or move or whatever, NOT the intent to project Chi. You do not need to lead or project Chi or consciously intend it to do anything, it responds naturally to your intent. If this does not occur, then you are still a novice.

The purposes of Wei Qi Gung is to condition the body, muscles, tendons and bones to receive impacts by hardening the body and training it to become accustomed to receiving impacts. Once this is accomplished there is no need to focus the Chi to any particular area to protect it from impact. With Nei Qi Gung we practice leading, projecting etc., but when Chi is needed during an encounter it responds spontaneously, it is unnecessary to guide it or tell it where to go. You would not have time to do so under many circumstances anyway. It would be impractical and would create zuki which is your moment of greatest vulnerability.

[TenTigers]

"The purposes of Wei Qi Gung is to condition the body, muscles, tendons and bones to receive impacts by hardening the body and training it to become accustomed to receiving impacts. Once this is accomplished there is no need to focus the Chi to any particular area to protect it from impact. With Nei Qi Gung we practice leading, projecting etc., but when Chi is needed during an encounter it responds spontaneously, it is unnecessary to guide it or tell it where to go. You would not have time to do so under many circumstances anyway. It would be impractical and would create zuki which is your moment of greatest vulnerability."

I believe we are actually discussing the same thing-only I was referring to one stage in development, and you were referring to another. To achieve the above level, one usually (at least in my limited experience) begins with the aforementioned methods. In other words, I was outlining a beginner training stage, and you were describing the end results. I was not saying that there is no chi, or that during tfighting one would need to conciously direct chi, and I agree that it would be a natural and spontaneous result. This is what happens when I cut and paste, things might be taken out of context.
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[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Ten Tigers,

Thank you for the clarification.