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Thread: best styles of Grappling?

  1. #16
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    I'm not worried about getting banged around-over 30 yrs in MA, Kyokushin,Hakko-Ryu,Hapkido,and that's before I got seriously into Hung Kuen. I'm pushin 50, but I still bang, and I let my students throw me, with or without mats, makes no differnce. Why let them have all the fun?
    (ok, I might have exagerrated a bit on that "makes no differnce" part!)

    I'm just looking for the most efficient, and nastiest grappling skills. I don't want to rollaround on the ground like a dog for ten minutes, I just want to bust'em up, bring'em down, ground 'n pound, or break whatever I need to and get up and go. Really, the nastiest sheite possible.
    "Old age and treachery will overcome youth and vigour"

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TenTigers View Post
    I don't want to rollaround on the ground like a dog for ten minutes, :

    "dog"? Why would "dog" be the animal that comes to mind for that simile? Wouldn't a snake or something make more sense?

    Anyway, if you are looking to impose limits on how long you can 'allow' yourself to work in that range, you are probably not going to get much of value.

  3. #18
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    In my experience judo is much easier on the body than BJJ.
    Wow! Where are you training?!

    I'm not trying to be a ****, I mean that seriously.... IME Judo is probably one of the hardest, bone crunching, joint-messing-up things out there.

    Just really WOW.

    Perhaps you just fall a hell of a lot better than me or something.


    Re: the first question, it's really kind of a fallacious one.

    There's good grappling and bad grappling. "Style" is really just shorthand for what you're going to get good at faster.

    What unkokusai brings up about wrestling IS a valid point, but not so much in the sense that wrestling is inherently hard on the joints, any more than any other grappling style.... It's more that wrestlers in the United States are a tough crowd, more often than not preparing for competition, and the intensity level is usually extremely high. This, regardless of what you talk to the coach or other students about, is going to affect you. Ex wrestlers at BJJ class who haven't been doing BJJ for very long are extremely and effectively aggressive.

    I tend to disagree about starting Judo now. You could definitely do that IF you pick the right place. If you find a recreational judo club, you would probably be fine. But Judo is absolutely not easy on the body. Falling hurts and when you do it wrong/don't have the opportunity to fall correctly cause it was a sweet throw, it will **** YOU UP. Just ask my surgically repaired left shoulder :P

    Competition Judo is brutal and the training is correspondingly so.

    BJJ tends to have far fewer jarring impacts, and injuries are usually genuine accidents as opposed to the consequences of the grappling. You are unlikely to learn any truly solid takedown skills, but that will depend on your instructor(s).

    However, one often overlooked benefit of BJJ, is that you get to dictate whether or not the fight is going to STAY on the ground. I've got a brown belt in BJJ, and there are a very small number of people in this world who can keep me on the ground - not like I'm a badass, just that not many people train to KEEP you on the ground - not even Judoka, and I spend a lot of time learning how to escape. Escaping on the ground is a tremendously useful skill, and one that requires just as much practice as anything else.

    That said, if you don't "want to roll around on the ground like a dog for ten minutes," then I'd say you aren't approaching this with an open mind, and kind of missing the point as well. No offense intended, but you might want to consider that.

    Yeah, better grappling. Not empty marketing slogans.
    May be the best post on this board in a long time.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

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    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  4. #19
    yeah, don't train in anything that one might consider the anti-grappling, or ways to not go to the ground myth. because all traditional systems have no clinching or pummelling. these are only found in grappling. pay attention to maybe fedor or krocop too. krocop never trains anything that one might consider anti-grappling or ways to not go to the ground myth. as the fight begins he just goes to the middle of the ring and falls down in guard. oh no, yeah he trains that too, but he also trains grappling. so...

  5. #20
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    Falling to the guard is stupid, even if you're Nogeura.

    What we are saying Tao Yin, is that Anti-Grappling is a myth. It's a stupid awful, bull**** myth perpetuated by people who don't understand grappling, or are looking to make a quick buck off people who don't want to confront reality.

    What beats grappling is better grappling. That doesn't mean you have to be an overall better grappler. It means that you have to concentrate on grappling defenses and escapes, and make them better than a "good grappler." The striking oriented fighters you cited are evidence of precisely what I am talking about.

    But these are, by definition, grappling. Grappling is nothing more than maniuplation of the body through grabbing with the limbs (underhook, overhooks, leg hooks, crossfaces, etc) or hands (wrist control, etc). In case you hadn't noticed, sprawling, escaping from the bottom, and other such defenses involve a significant amount of body manipulation using these types of manuevers.

    It would be like practicing "anti-striking." You notice that nobody ever says such stupid crap. There is "practicing your defenses," but nothing so blatantly ridiculous as "I'm going to go learn some anti-striking."

    Please.

    To address your other point, nobody is suggesting that other arts don't have the clinch and takedowns. However, who is going to have perfected those things? Would you go to a Judoka to learn to kick?

    Here's something to consider - what makes Chuck Liddell so dangerous? Is it his heavy hands? Well, Tank has heavy hands, but he pretty much sucks in comparison to top competition.

    Oh wait....it's Chuck's exceptional wrestling background that enables him to use grappling to keep his feet to EMPLOY his heavy hands.

    I suppose though, that Randy Couture defeated him once because of his "anti-striking skills."

    But hey, anybody on this thread - feel free to listen to who you want - either me and unkokusai, who have collectively grappled and by definition have defended against grappling maneuvers for probably 30+ years, or somebody who advocates "anti-grappling."
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  6. #21
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    Thumbs up

    Ten Tigers,

    I went to a Swai Jiao class in Manhattan and really liked what I saw. Not that they just worked on throws, joint locks, and takedowns, but they also worked on escapes from the ground. There were a few grappling background guys working out (rolling) with them and they were impressed as well. The thing was, that when they usually took the guy's down, the Swai Jiao guys still always seemed to be in control of the grappling. Just about always falling on top of the guy and landing with force.

    Once it went to the ground, they weren't down there too long before they had escaped back to their feet. I saw one of the grapplers trying that fall to guard, it looked pretty stupid against these guys. I don't know the level of the grapplers, but they seemed to know their stuff. I know one guy is training for an upcoming MMA fight I didn't hear where though.

    These guys are students of James Man Chin through Grand Master Jeng, Hsing Ping. I'm not sure if you're interested in Swai Jiao since you didn't list it, just thought i'd bring it to the table. I myself did some wrestling back yrs ago, and have rolled with Bjj ppl of various levels, I was impressed with them.

    jeff
    少林黑虎門
    Sil Lum Hak Fu Mun
    RIP Kuen "Fred" Woo (sifu)

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merryprankster View Post
    What we are saying Tao Yin, is that Anti-Grappling is a myth. It's a stupid awful, bull**** myth perpetuated by people who don't understand grappling, or are looking to make a quick buck off people who don't want to confront reality.
    But hey, anybody on this thread - feel free to listen to who you want - either me and unkokusai, who have collectively grappled and by definition have defended against grappling maneuvers for probably 30+ years, or somebody who advocates "anti-grappling."
    Very well said, sir!



    Although collectively we are probably representing more like 40+ years!
    Last edited by unkokusai; 09-03-2006 at 03:36 PM.

  8. #23
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    I dunno - I'm only 30!

    But to get back on point:

    The right answer here is to go to a few different places offering grappling styles you think you might be interested in, and find the best instructor and best environment you can.

    It's less about style and more about quality, IMO.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merryprankster View Post
    I dunno - I'm only 30!

    Well, if you've got more than ten years then we ought to break the 40 mark, all of which is really not the crucial point, I suppose.

  10. #25
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    Then we break the 40 mark

    5 years Wrestling, 5 or 6 of BJJ...
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merryprankster View Post
    Then we break the 40 mark ...

    Hoorah! What do we win? I mean, besides chronic pain?

  12. #27

    Talking



    Merryprankster,

    I was joking, completely. Did you miss that? I was making fun of both sides of the argument. I know what you are saying. I have known. You have been saying the exact same thing for however long you have been on here, in almost every other post no less. Your opinion has never changed. But I was making fun of both sides of the argument. And if it didn't look like I was, then bam, I just changed it for you. Who cares? Don't take things so seriously. If you were not competing you would never be fighting anyway. We cool now? Im just fuggin wid ya.

  13. #28
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    Oh.

    Oops. Sorry. Touched a nerve.

    I'm going to go bang my head against a wall and cry now.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  14. #29
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Merryprankster View Post
    What beats grappling is better grappling. That doesn't mean you have to be an overall better grappler. It means that you have to concentrate on grappling defenses and escapes, and make them better than a "good grappler." The striking oriented fighters you cited are evidence of precisely what I am talking about.

    But these are, by definition, grappling. Grappling is nothing more than maniuplation of the body through grabbing with the limbs (underhook, overhooks, leg hooks, crossfaces, etc) or hands (wrist control, etc). In case you hadn't noticed, sprawling, escaping from the bottom, and other such defenses involve a significant amount of body manipulation using these types of manuevers.

    It would be like practicing "anti-striking." You notice that nobody ever says such stupid crap. There is "practicing your defenses," but nothing so blatantly ridiculous as "I'm going to go learn some anti-striking."
    Since you have defined the meaning of "Anti-grappling" I see your point. By "anti-grappling" I take it you and unkokusai mean all the things likes "eye gouges, and groin kicks and throat strikes, oh my!" that are touted as anti-grappling strategies. In that case, I agree, that stuff is bull, especially since NO ONE practices arts that feature those techniques prominently, or is able to practice them against resistance on a regular basis.

    As far as your point about "Anti-striking" I originally THOUGHT that was the implication behind saying Anti-Grappling was a myth (i.e. "Grappling is the best way to approach a fight! Nothing beats it, therefore striking is pointless!" kinda stuff.) I apologize for my misconception. The points you've made have been good, sound ones. Thanks
    "Prepare your mind..." "For a mind explosion!"
    -The Human Giant, Illusionators

  15. #30


    Huh? Touched a nerve? I don't understand why you still don't understand? Your idea and answer, off and on as it suits you, is usually, "What beats good striking? grappling." What beats good grappling? grappling." Then you will turn around and answer good striking for beating striking every now and again. Either or, neither nor, its endless and always will be, hence cross-training. One good shot ends the fight. One good submission ends the fight. One terrible shot wins the fight. One terrible submission wins the fight. Something in the middle, a kick this way or that way.

    You label it too much. Why? That is my point. Seriously, and as humbly as I can say this, nothing in this world that you could or would ever say would touch any nerve of mine. I don't live in the same box you do. Like I said, I'm just fuggin wit ya and it doesn't matter. Giving you a head check for fun because no-one else will besides the few people that you roll with and the few people that you compete with. I've looked in the mirror and I didn't care what I saw. I wasn't pleased or not pleased. Anyways,


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