What's your poison ?

[Eric Ling]

If given the chance to, what traditional kung fu or forms or skills would you like to view up close?

Not a facetious question but really related to a project that I am presently working on.

Thanks.

[Fu-Pow]

Lager beer, tequila, vodka, scotch, bourbon

[TenTigers]

The earliest, most pure Saam Jien Kuen, I believe that might be a Tai Tzu form? not sure
,
Hung Kuen forms-including early Tiet Sien Kuen not from Lam Sai-Wing, or Yee's Hung-Ga, but from other Tang Fung lines, and other lines as well, as well as non Wong Fei-Hung lineage.

chopstick and bowl form from Hak Fu Mun

Lama P'ai forms,Hop-Ga forms

a real Joi Bot Sien form

Higashionna's sanchin kata

several versions of Yang Ga Ng Long Bot Gwa Gwun

Lien Gung drills and exercises from Hung Kuen and Hakka Kuen

[PlumDragon]

Poison? "Well Ive spent the last few years building up an immunity to Iocaine powder". Ill take the Iocaine!

On a serious note, Im really quite content with the material I get in southern mantis. If I had to add to that:

- Ive always had a soft spot for xing yi but never got to move past the 5 elements. Someday I very much hope to study xing yi's 12 animals.

- I would love to examine the 108 forms from different styles. With as many arts that have deep roots/formswork/ideas/etc based on the number 108, it would be fascinating to study the similarities and differences.

[B-Rad]

Is this just for Southern styles? If so, I allways like seeing the Tiger-Crane forms. Also weapons forms based off more ordinary everyday objects, like the bench.

If not, I like seeing anything on Baji quan and Pigua zhang. There's a lot of different branches, though we mostly get exposed to Liu Yun Qiao's branch here in the U.S.

[David Jamieson]

Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen from Hung Gar is important in context to it's relation of the basic study of old shaolin kungfu method.

Sam chin Kata (three battles) or as an alternative, Tid sen Kuen is a dynamic tension set that also has meditation in motion qualities and is highly beneficial to the development of mind and body.

There are a huge variety of forms that deal with aspects of the body and mind working in unison to a goal. Form that focuses on muscle and bone. Forms that focus on tendon and sinew, forms that focus on regulating bloodflow, forms that focus on regulating breath and forms that focus on being conciously aware of all the mechanical aspects of what's going on in the body and the bodies relationship to the space it is in and moving through.

shape the augments range of motion. shape that augments power generation. Shape that augments strength and endurance. Any form or series of form that addresses and deal with the body and mind as a single unit are worth looking at. There's a lot of nuances and differences across various styles of combative arts as well as qigongs and nei gong exercises from asian traditions.

These methods are not exclusive to that part of the world and in fact, through martial practice in all societies, there are side effects that do not go unnoticed and that aid in the skill and ability of the practitioner on different levels.

[Eric Ling]

“Lager beer, tequila, vodka, scotch, bourbon”

Hahaha , methinks you probably got a bit too much already but please don’t mind if I join you on the beer thingy…

Not clear the first time round; not restricted to Southern or external styles only.

I would like to think that the “earliest” Sanchins are from Tai Zhu but the roots are probably by-products of Shaolin.

In the same breath, I got to say that if you do Sanchin for “energies” training then including Tit Sin Kune here is not that incredulous.

Personally, I would love to see all the various shades of Sanchins played out side by side. The same underlying principles but presented in various shapes and forms; Fukien, Hakka, Fuzhou, Okinawan, Japanese…cannot get better for Sanchins fans.

Regards.

[TenTigers]

Eric-
I too, am a big fan of sanchin/samjien, as I have learned several variations. I have a friend who I will coax into teaching me the ngo cho version, and another Okinawan Gojuryu friend who will teach me Higashionna Sanchin.
(hey, some people collect stamps...)
I am always looking for connections and roots and origins. Right now, I am seeking the foundations of Guongdong Hung-Ga, specifically the Lama/Hop-Ga influences from Wong Yum-Lum, and the Tiet Sien/Sam Jien/Sam Bo Ging connections. I also would like to see original Fut Ga Lo Hon Kuen.
I guess in doing so, I can sort of get inside Wong Fei-Hung's brain, and almost be right there at the creation of his Guongdong Hung Kuen, and perhaps gain some insight as to how the style was originally meant to be played/practiced/fought with.
What are your views?

[mantis108]

Well, I am a firm believer in "Show me what you drill and I will tell you how your Kung Fu going to be."

This is not an attack or criticism on you, Eric, or anyone in general. But this is a call to reflect on video production of TCMA.

With all due respects, I am a little jaded with all the variations on forms and the endless arguements that come with them. The same teacher same school with 2 different students and you've got 3 versions of the same form already. Why can't people be happy and contant that each of these people put their own hard work and stamps on anotherwise dead pattern? It is their own experiences that breath life into the forms. It's merely the performing aspect of martial arts and the presentation of one's endeavour.

Show me 2 person drills, show me real-time applications, show me sparring with whatever that is your training gives you. If it is all contained in the forms (indiviual techniques), by all means show me the forms when applied on a resistive opponent who's action is random and wild. Show me how you would dominate him within the frame work of your style's philosophy and the principle encompassed by the techniques. We hear how Shaolin is a benevolent art but we have practitioner after practitioner that deals with situation with extreme prejudice (ie Knock the F@ck out of the opponent). So what they said is not what they do. What's the point in learning Kung Fu then? We might as well all go for MMA.

Video product of TCMA today is innodated with self obsessed performing arts. There is hardly any sincere, honest and down to earth instructions on how to deal with real self defense and martial sports situationw. This is why people turn to San Shou which IMHO is not the best format to showcase what Kung Fu is capable of. But then majority of Kung Fu people can't handle point sparring, let aone San Shou. Take a good look at MMA, Muay Thai, grappling, Box, San Shou, Kali, Silat, etc, their video products out match any TCMA by leaps and bounce. Because they all honestly want to get the number one message out there - we are the best of the best in real time altercation (at least from their own perspective).

We can critique a form till the end of time. We are only saying what we subjectively like or dislike about someone's performing ability that's all. There is no real and tangible standard about that. Most importantly, it does not say anything about the fighting ability of that person.

Don't get me wrong, I love forms and I see value in them but please stop perpetuating the self obsession of performing arts aspect in Kung Fu. Show the world the real stuff with integrity.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[TenTigers]

That's not the message I was getting from Eric's post at all, and from reading his posts on the wu-lin forums, I think the idea behind placing vids up is not "who's is better", but for analysis of the key components of a system. more like Research, as opposed to braggadaccio.
Agreed that simply watching a person perform a set is no indication of his fighting skill. However, I don't think that is where Eric was coming from. I know it isn't where I am coming from. I also understand that seeing someone drill, and then apply those drills in actual pressure testing is more of an indication of skill, and further to apply it in combat. Probably would make a separate thread. As a matter of fact, I am actually working on this very thing and hope to place it in my website as well.

[Eric Ling]

Wow, that’s quite a bit to digest.

Firstly, let me just say this is not a video production project.

Then allow me to say that, personally, I think forms, drills, applications and San Shou, in the traditional sense, all have equal weight in my book.

When I was learning the arts, these are all compulsory components. A complete package.

You do basics to prepare for a form and then move on to do specific drills to make you adept with the applications. Then you learn to fight with what you’ve learn; the standard paradigm.

This applies to both empty hands and weapons skills.

I think forms are important because it contain the histories and flavors of the various styles and sects.

To maintain integrity now becomes a question of doing it as close as possible to the manner it’s been passed on to you.

A little like the game where everyone stands in a line and the first person would whisper something to the next and so on.

Sometimes the original message would be totally mutated when it gets to the last.

Regards.

[David Jamieson]

There are all sorts of other methods besides form/drills/sparring/fighting.

In my opinion, the shaolin skills are highly useful in development.

There are devices and apparati that are used for specific attribute development and there is also the use of striking surfaces in order to correct structure and mechanics. Heavy bag, speed bag, wall ball, mook jong, weighted devices, rings, leg locks, stone locks, chin na stones, water buckets, weapons play and so on.

no force / force / applied force in motion

[mantis108]

Well, I hear what your are saying Ten Tigers and Eric, I was just ranting a bit concerning video materials that are available today. I did follow the forum that Eric hosted, which is now pretty much shut down due to the rapid growth and attention. I think it was a great and promising venue for serious MAists to meet and brain storm. Personally, I benefited from that site. It's a shame that it's not in operation anymore.

I believe that if we have faith in what we do, then by all means use the technologies that are available. Personally, I think a lot of southern folks have issues about "family edicts" and all. Always looking over their own shoulders making sure that whatever their actions may be, no higher ups of the clan will come out and banish or disown them. Always attempt to suck up to the higher ups and look for the higher ups to spoon fed them with "family secrets". I don't think that's very healthy. There is only one truth despite of the myriad of path that can get us there. The best path of all is to exercise your own intelligence. Don't be a lap dog of some omnipotent master who might feed you scraps whenever he feels like it. BTW, it doesn't mean that you disrespect their status or abuse their trust on purpose. Just don't be a simpleton slave. Look at how many times threads are started here about showing hands of Southern Mantis, Wing Chun, Hung Ga, CLF, etc. These kind of threads never got too far. Why? Because people are afraid of what I outlined above. It's all political BS. Why is it not enough to give credit where credit is due? I am all for honoring where the information, history and material came from, but once it's learn it's mine. I don't owe anything to anyone any more. If you worry about what others think, you will never progress in Kung Fu IMHO. I have left my teachers (most of them past away) and my mentors (most of them still alive) doors for a good decade or so. But I never stop learning all things concerning MA. One of my main mentors in mantis recently said to me "I saw your clips on the internet", "what the hell kind of application (something not taught by him personally) is that?" But then he continued, "Well, I suppose you have to do what you've got to do for your environment." If you are true to yourself and to the principles of your arts, whatever people think is their business. You stay close to the truth no one can affect you through attacks (verbal or otherwise). Those who have been there would understand and support you. As for those idiotic master wannabes on this forum (it's their way or the high way), they are nobody as far as I am concern. They have never learned anything useful anyway. We don't even have to acknowledge their attention grabbing stunts.

I think just by having faith in yourself as a martial artist, your art will improve immensely. So by all means post whatever that you are most comfortable with and let's make use of the forum as it is intended - brain storming with and learning from each other. Just one reminder, it is advicable to go in for the long haul, so be prepare to plan your material accordingly if you really want your message to come across to the general public. Oh, beware of detractors but don't get discouraged by their ignorance.

Yet another long winded rant.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Eric Ling]

Hahaha, and to think that all I wanted is to discover is what style of kung fu or kung fu topic folks would like to see in action.

Robert, you are truly an amazing person; CKF needs more of you.

Yes living with one leg stuck in the past is not going to move you any forward. I understand your point.

But don’t you think remembering and honoring efforts by past teachers is also an obligation?

Unfortunately sometimes “traditions” becomes a political tool for other ends.

I left Wu-Lin to run its own course because that’s the direction it was taking. Sentiments like my style is more pure and only the Chinese can do kung fu right are beginning to sprout. Since I said at the outset of Wu-Lin not to shut it down, I stop participating and left it running on its own steam.

Not going to go into what style or method is the best simply because I think this is immature thinking.

As far as conforming to clans and family edicts is concerned, my response is that you cannot generalize the situation. We all want to be creative and innovative in our own ways but certain protocols still need to be observed.

No, not to be slaves but to be respectful.

Regards.

[Banjos_dad]

how about Da Tongbei Quan then ?