Do you believe "Chi" exist?

[Dragon Warrior]

Do you believe in "Chi"? If yes, what is it? And why do you believe in it?

[David Jamieson]

I believe in it because I read, responded and answered to this poll.

What is it? It is that intangible that sustains living things.

Can you see the wind? Is it there? Comparitively speaking.

1000 years ago, the earth was flat and the sun passed over and under the disk, no one knew about the outer planets, what a microbe was, what a disease looked like, how clouds were formed and so on. Eventually, we found out, but still...can you see the wind?

[monkeyfoot]

I wouldnt even say you have to 'believe' in it. When someone uses the word 'believe' people connect it with far fetched concepts of little possibility. The whole idea of Chi is not a far off mystical concept that one must 'believe' in. Its not like god, where its all or nothing, 50/50, hes either there or not. Chi is simply just 'energy' that every living thing posesses, its just that most people get caught up on the name and brand it off as something that you have to 'believe' or 'not believe'.

Like someone said to me, hold your breath for 10 minutes and then tell me chi isnt real.

craig

[Donkwoon]

I believe in chi because I've experienced it first hand.

[The Willow Sword]

Of course i Believe in "Chi". But that is what the chinese call it. The japanese call it "Ki" the yogis call it something different( i forgot what they call it ). It all basically explains the electro chemical energy process in the body which regulates our temperature and that can also stimulate t-cell growth and that can also be manipulated by the mind to stimulate within us a sense of well being and positivity.
Plainly stated "CHI" is the Energy of the living being. It is also the energy of the universe(kinda new agey way to describe it but essentially this is a FACT)

Now for me the debate comes in to play as to whether or not this energy in the body can be manipulated so much as to make one BE stronger than what he/she is truly capable of being. Or does this energy when manipulated in the body have the means to reverse our aging and make us immortal? Does this energy in the body have the means when manipulated to stave off infection and eliminate sickness?

One thing is for sure and this is what I have experienced first hand, is that by being able to manipulate the energy processes in the body with your mind one can "feel" and "be" relaxed and can also "feel" a sense of wellness. of course i speak of meditation. it is as far as i have been able to go with the chi process in my body. I only look younger than i really am because i eat right and drink green tea like it is going out of style

Its a complex thing "chi".

TWS

[Fu-Pow]

If you can define Chi I will tell you if I believe in it.

If you want to define it as a "vital energy" outside the scope of accepted scientifically accepted forces, then I say no. There is no scientific evidence to support the existence of a mysterious "vital energy" in life forms.

Is the body "electric", yes. Is this the same as "Chi"....that's highly debatable.

[Golden Arms]

There you go Fu-Pow, read that and tell me what you think?

http://www.hkhunggar.com/040904%20energy.pdf

[The Xia]

the yogis call it something different( i forgot what they call it ).

Yogis call it Prana.

[mantis108]

Voted yes!

Well, there is a scientific model of Qi (Chi) that is based on Chinese worldview where time is a component of an event along the same line as theory of relativity as oppose to classical physics where time is used as a ruler. So the "scientific model" of Qi, which btw is applied in Chinese medicine as well as in Kung Fu, is IMHO explicable with Quantum physics, which is relatively new (pun intended). It would be much more difficult to explain Qi with the mindset of classical physics.

The language of Qi might be ancient and indecipherable for most but it doesn't mean that it is some hocus pocus (well, the die hard religious people might want you to think so).

Mantis108

[Fu-Pow]

There you go Fu-Pow, read that and tell me what you think?

http://www.hkhunggar.com/040904%20energy.pdf

It doesn't open for me.

Voted yes!

Well, there is a scientific model of Qi (Chi) that is based on Chinese worldview where time is a component of an event along the same line as theory of relativity as oppose to classical physics where time is used as a ruler. So the "scientific model" of Qi, which btw is applied in Chinese medicine as well as in Kung Fu, is IMHO explicable with Quantum physics, which is relatively new (pun intended). It would be much more difficult to explain Qi with the mindset of classical physics.

There are very few people in the world that understand Quantum physics well enough to be able to invoke it in defense of pseudo-mystical concepts like Chi.

The language of Qi might be ancient and indecipherable for most but it doesn't mean that it is some hocus pocus (well, the die hard religious people might want you to think so).

Mantis108

Like I said, its all how you define it.

If you want to define it as a "vital energy" then it should be rejected, "vitalism" is a dead concept. Science has been unable to detect this mysterious "vital energy." Maybe chi is out of the realm of science but if so then it becomes as debatable as religion, politics, etc. We have no way to take personal biases out of the perception and analysis and therefore, we can go on and on.

If you want to define Chi as something like the wholistic functioning of the body or as a concert of physiological activities (ie blood flow, electric fields, etc.) now we're in the realm of science and these types of things can be quantified, measured and possibly reproduced.

Remember that when the concept of chi was formulated the Chinese had not derived a clear concept of science as we know it in the west. Therfore, you find that while there is some empirical evidence to back up some of these concepts there was not a clear scientific method to accept or reject them. Therefore, what you find in Chinese theories about the human body is some wisdom and some subjective bull$hit.Its the job of us moderns to weed out the true from the false.

There are good things about Chinese medicine in that they treat patients in a more "wholistic" manner, not seeing a clear separation between mind and body, subject and object. However, we need to remain as objective as possible in examining the evidence for some of these theories.

[The Willow Sword]

Thanks "The Xia" for reminding me. You know i WAS going to say "MANA" but then i would have revealed myself as a War Craft III Nerd .................................................. ........................fuk i just did


TWS

[mantis108]

There are very few people in the world that understand Quantum physics well enough to be able to invoke it in defense of pseudo-mystical concepts like Chi.

That perhaps is a good thing. The spreading of Quantum physics or high energy physics may further the uncertainty of balance of political powers these days. So if people feel that it's hocus pocus, well by all means (at least the politicians would like you to think that way).

Like I said, its all how you define it.

If you want to define it as a "vital energy" then it should be rejected, "vitalism" is a dead concept. Science has been unable to detect this mysterious "vital energy." Maybe chi is out of the realm of science but if so then it becomes as debatable as religion, politics, etc. We have no way to take personal biases out of the perception and analysis and therefore, we can go on and on.

Well, vital energy is a tricky term. In some ways, it's like telling people that there is such thing as a "soul". Wether you believe in soul or vital energy, well that's a personal journey. It's no point for anyone to tell you whether it exists or not. Personally, a body is like any matter that is energy that is runing out of energy. It's all a matter of time.

If you want to define Chi as something like the wholistic functioning of the body or as a concert of physiological activities (ie blood flow, electric fields, etc.) now we're in the realm of science and these types of things can be quantified, measured and possibly reproduced.

We weren't able to see gravity and didn't "realize" its existence. We didn't "know" there are particles smaller than the atom. We weren't able to measure or harness the energy exist within the atom. Now we can. It's all a matter of time. Religiously holding on to "scientific dogma" is just as bad as those who have blind faith in Qi without having practical emperical understanding and knowledge of it.

Remember that when the concept of chi was formulated the Chinese had not derived a clear concept of science as we know it in the west.

Actually, similar to the west, political climate through out the ages had prevented pragmatic knowledge of the science of Qi to surface in China. The clear concept and scientific model does exist but is muffled by confucian scholars who have more interest in philosophy and reasoning then science. So... and of course today, the education standard in Chinese is quite low. Most people can't read and write good modern Chinese article anymore let alone understanding ancient writings.

Therfore, you find that while there is some empirical evidence to back up some of these concepts there was not a clear scientific method to accept or reject them. Therefore, what you find in Chinese theories about the human body is some wisdom and some subjective bull$hit.Its the job of us moderns to weed out the true from the false.

So you are saying that the volumes of Chinese medical books (written about 2000 years ago) and case studies are just BS (Are Chinese just that longwinded)? Healing among the Chinese as a people with an impressive 1.3 billion population is just a fluke? There is no science, it's all plain luck that we didn't get "wipe out" by evolution? Don't forget Chinese are the first to found out the use of magnetic field and applied it in warfare (now arguable warfare is an art). That's luck too?

There are good things about Chinese medicine in that they treat patients in a more "wholistic" manner, not seeing a clear separation between mind and body, subject and object. However, we need to remain as objective as possible in examining the evidence for some of these theories.

Being objective is the key, my friend. There are more to it than hardline "scientific" stance which as we speak is getting out dated. Just beware that pride can blindside anyone just as faith can. All I am saying is keep an open mind. There are more to it than we are lead to believe as common folks.

Regards

Mantis108

[Fu-Pow]

That perhaps is a good thing. The spreading of Quantum physics or high energy physics may further the uncertainty of balance of political powers these days. So if people feel that it's hocus pocus, well by all means (at least the politicians would like you to think that way).

You're saying that quantum mechanics is influencing politics....how?

Well, vital energy is a tricky term. In some ways, it's like telling people that there is such thing as a "soul". Wether you believe in soul or vital energy, well that's a personal journey. It's no point for anyone to tell you whether it exists or not. Personally, a body is like any matter that is energy that is runing out of energy. It's all a matter of time.

My point is that if you want to talk about chi as a measurable quantity then we can talk about it in a scientific sense using modern scientific language. If you want to talk about as a "soul" or mystical force outside of the recognized body of science then it is debatable....just like religion, or politics.

We weren't able to see gravity and didn't "realize" its existence. We didn't "know" there are particles smaller than the atom. We weren't able to measure or harness the energy exist within the atom. Now we can. It's all a matter of time. Religiously holding on to "scientific dogma" is just as bad as those who have blind faith in Qi without having practical emperical understanding and knowledge of it.

That's fine, if chi is something that exists outside of the accepted scientific literature of known energies then perhaps more research will uncover it. However, my problem is when people invoke scientific theories to support something that exists outside scientific knowledge. The problem is thus...if you want your theory to have scientific credibility then you have to play by the rules of the scientific method.

So you are saying that the volumes of Chinese medical books (written about 2000 years ago) and case studies are just BS (Are Chinese just that longwinded)? Healing among the Chinese as a people with an impressive 1.3 billion population is just a fluke?

No, I didn't say that. I said that there is plenty of empirical evidence (ie case studies) out there to back up some of the chinese medical theories. However, the Chinese did not have a fully developed theoretical-empirical scientific method .

Therefore, they didn't have a very strong way to figure out causation. A lot of it came down to personal opinion or speculation or semi-mystical explanation. Sometimes the opinion fit the data, sometimes it didn't but there was not a systematic way to go back and figure out if the theory fit the data. So what you have is a bunch of Chinese doctors doing the same thing but for different reasons.

There is no science, it's all plain luck that we didn't get "wipe out" by evolution? Don't forget Chinese are the first to found out the use of magnetic field and applied it in warfare (now arguable warfare is an art). That's luck too?

At one time the Asian and Middle Eastern civilizations were way more devloped in their thinking than Europe. For some reason, which is a whole other topic, the West pulled ahead technologically. A big part of this was the scientific method that developed in the West with it root in antiquity and which resurfaced again in Renaissance Europe.

Now the rest of the world is either getting into the game or being left behind. Asian countries are pouring huge amounts of money into scientific exploits because the method works.

Being objective is the key, my friend. There are more to it than hardline "scientific" stance which as we speak is getting out dated. Just beware that pride can blindside anyone just as faith can. All I am saying is keep an open mind. There are more to it than we are lead to believe as common folks.

Regards

Mantis108

I agree. There is lots that science can't explain. However, don't invoke things like quantum mechanics to prop up your own subjective interpretations of things. If you want to believe in chi more power to you. If it is your own subjective interpretation of events in your own body then who am I to tell you you are wrong? Just don't expect that people are going to take these things seriously in an objective way if we can't taste it, touch it, smell it, hear it or feel it (or by some extension of the senses.)

[PangQuan]

everyone direct thier deadly qi blasts at flying monkey

[PangQuan]

there are over 90 different representations of "Qi" from all different cultures, even ancient westerners had mana....