Do you believe "Chi" exist?

[CoRWiN]

Chi is the electrical energy that courses through our bodies, so yes I believe in it. If the mind controls the body, it only makes sense that one would be able to master the currents of electricty of our neuro system as well.

Quantum Physics does a good deal to support the concept of remote chi control. One of the basic concepts in Quantum Physics is that something over here can directly affect something over there with absolutely no observable connection. How this is done is anybodies guess, but like it was said earlier, just because we can not prove something, does not mean it is disproved.

[The Xia]

Conditioning and training, no biggie...

Care to elaborate?

[JohnnyMnemonic]

It's not the offer to explain.. it's usually that the explanation is deficient or presented in such a manner as to devalue its credibility.. respect, civil discourse, and a willingness to show the same consideration for the opinions of others that you wish them to show for yours will usually yield an open and beneficial dialogue..

Be well..

I disagree. What you see as respect, blah, blah, I see as the dithering of a beauracracy.

Like Lebanon.

The Isrealis are mudering hundreds of people right in front of the TV. Instead of stopping it, people are "talking respectfully, civilly, and showing consideration". Of course they are. They are not being murdered. They can take all the time in the world they want.

Me? I sweep all that time wasting away with a wave of my hand and get right to the subject. What is it that you need? Those people in Lebanon need the Isrealis to stop murdering them. I think kung fu students need concrete answers instead of time wasting civility and gladhandling.

[JohnnyMnemonic]

Any alive or curious people here? What do you make of this picture?




Just a picture? Or something that has a bearing on this topic?

If it is just a picture in your opinion, why is he doing what he is doing?

If the picture has a bearing on this topic, what do you think it is?

You can't teach an animal.

Or people who just plain do not give a ****.

I tried.

[PangQuan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mana

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mana

[PangQuan]

Mana should not be confused with the Biblical manna (also spelled mana or mannah) which, according to the Bible (Exodus, chapter 16), provided sustenance for the Israelites. However, some believe its mystical definition can also serve as an alternative interpretation for the substance described in Exodus

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Johnny: Tsk, tsk.. your delusions of self-grandeur are blinding us.. should we bow down to your vast superiority? or, as is appropriate, ignore your blathering? So far, you have criticized much and offered little.. show us some real wisdom, if you can. Talk is cheap, put something out there with substance..

The Xia: Start with light weights and slowly increase weights developing tolerance and tensile integreity.. I've seen Shaolin Monks dragging 50 lb. rocks tied to their "dangles".. the resistance of dragging put quite a strain on things.. "conditioning and training"...

Be well..

[auntie]

I've never tried to put this into words before but here goes;
I tend to view Chi more like centrifugal force; not something that exists as a separate energy/force but rather something that gives that appearance but is actually a combination of other things working together.

These would be things like whether your muscles are working together or opposing each other, your state of mind, the amount of complex carbs in your diet and other things.

I don't believe in a mystic energy that hums around my body and can be concentrated and then inhaled, but that's not to say that such exercises don't have an affect on your chi because they do have an affect on the things that compose it.

Centrifugal force does not exist but the forces that together give that appearance can be harnessed, focussed and used. the same is true of chi.

Does this make sense to anyone?

[jacksawild]

We have some very useful terms thanks to the giant minds that have preceeded us. Terms like: Inertia, Gravity, Momentum, Pressure, Mechanics, Leverage, Electricity, Energy, Power and we have some inspired mathematics which we use to break these "effects" down in order to understand their respective aspects academically. The ancient Chinese didn't have these luxuries which we today take for granted; the only way for them to understand how physics worked was by watching, recording, theorising and learning (that should sound familiar to any science bods out there). What this resulted in was an all-encompassing term - Chi or Qi - when we think about force in scientific terms we realise that there is just one energy in the universe, this energy vibrates at different frequencies producing different manifestations i.e light, sound, heat and even in concentrated form all matter is this simple energy. This is proved by the matter energy equivalency calculation came up with by Einstein (E = MC2 or Energy = Matter mulitplied by the speed of light squared), so every particle of matter is infact a huge amount of vibrating energy, infact it is mostly empty space (This should sound familiar to traditional martial artists).


OK.. I'll admit, I despise mixing the mystical with the physical. It is ok, however, to know that there are things that we don't understand; this in a way, is mystical in and of itself.

When we learn combat Kung Fu we are infact learning how motion and energy work together without the complex equations. We are directly experiencing the universe and our brain is automatically making sense of it, which is exactly what it is best at doing. If something about our fighting system doesn't work, we disregard it; we invent new techniques and test them, if successful they are added to our canon. When we read of the old masters talking about chi or energy and it sounds mystical to us, that is because it seemed mystical to them. This is the way the universe works people, those who endeavour to learn the secrets will have an advantage over those who do not.

Everything can be explained by science but science can't explain everything ( I just made that up).

If you discount chi because you are "scientific", you are failing on both levels as a scientist and as a martial artist. Not until you directly experience that which you lampoon should you make any assumptions and if you try the techniques in a half-arsed way never expecting results, guess what? You wont get any. Do you really think thousands before us would have wasted their time for nothing?

Oh.. and please, the next person who speaks about Quantum Physics and kung fu, please understand it first... in other words... shhhhhhhhhhh

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

jacksawild: Pretty good post, nicely stated..

Be well..

[mantis108]

We have some very useful terms thanks to the giant minds that have preceeded us. Terms like: Inertia, Gravity, Momentum, Pressure, Mechanics, Leverage, Electricity, Energy, Power and we have some inspired mathematics which we use to break these "effects" down in order to understand their respective aspects academically. The ancient Chinese didn't have these luxuries which we today take for granted; the only way for them to understand how physics worked was by watching, recording, theorising and learning (that should sound familiar to any science bods out there). What this resulted in was an all-encompassing term - Chi or Qi - when we think about force in scientific terms we realise that there is just one energy in the universe, this energy vibrates at different frequencies producing different manifestations i.e light, sound, heat and even in concentrated form all matter is this simple energy. This is proved by the matter energy equivalency calculation came up with by Einstein (E = MC2 or Energy = Matter mulitplied by the speed of light squared), so every particle of matter is infact a huge amount of vibrating energy, infact it is mostly empty space (This should sound familiar to traditional martial artists).

You do know that when the astronauts gazed down from space upon the earth they saw the Great Wall of China - the only man made structure visible from space? You do realize that for any architectural structure to maintain long term integrity it MUST have mathematically sound and solid plans, right? Isn't this the way how the Greeks, Egyptians Romans, etc built their momeuments? Do you know how many ancient buildings (palaces, castles, houses, temples, bridge, tombs, etc) are there in China throughout the ages? Are you suggesting these were all built by heuristic method? Chinese civilization and it's extention is but a miracle? I hate to break the news to you, my friend. Chinese has mathematics and science thousands of years ago. Where do you think compass, gun powder, rockets, etc came from? They all came from a people who speaks of Qi.

Qi is not lumping everything mysterious that we don't understand and label it as such. That's ignorant people who has no idea what Qi is that do that. They do that so that they don't have to be questioned about it by those who seek the truth. Qi can be theoretically demonstrated as an intelligent design. Ancient scholars have used the Yijing (classic of change), which is now also inspirational to Quantum Physicists and information technologists, to demonstrate this clearly. It involves the understanding of Shu (mathematics), Xiang (phenomena), and Li (reasoning) - that I called the Holy Trinity of Yi. This intelligent design is not theoretical only. It exists in at least 2 forms - human body (as the grand representive of all sentient beings/animals) and the solar system (as the grand representive of all celestral systems and all levels of ecologies). Whether this intelligent design is divine or not, that's upto you.

So if you think you are the ONLY enlightened "scientist" who have figured everything out, please think again. The fact that Chinese have very little interest in building crazy machines and tools to "experience" the world is because it is our cultural bias (if you will) to adhere to nature and to be holistic (ie Daoism).

OK.. I'll admit, I despise mixing the mystical with the physical. It is ok, however, to know that there are things that we don't understand; this in a way, is mystical in and of itself.

You are certainly entitiled to your opinion. Personally, no offense, I find that it lacks a certain maturity in the thought process. There is a leap of faith into science and justifying the means by the end in your arguement.

When we learn combat Kung Fu we are infact learning how motion and energy work together without the complex equations. We are directly experiencing the universe and our brain is automatically making sense of it, which is exactly what it is best at doing. If something about our fighting system doesn't work, we disregard it; we invent new techniques and test them, if successful they are added to our canon. When we read of the old masters talking about chi or energy and it sounds mystical to us, that is because it seemed mystical to them. This is the way the universe works people, those who endeavour to learn the secrets will have an advantage over those who do not.

First and foremost, not one needs to learn to fight. As you said you/we are "naturally" wired to do so. So why bother with a "fighting system"? Just make a fist and start kicking and punching. Now if you insist on a "fighting system" that would means a "design" is involved right? In that case, could you enlighten us with your "fighting system" in its entirity in the simplest manner possible?

Qi simply is a unified theory that unites the mind-body continuum with the space-time continuum. It simply is a plan or map (just like any architectural plan) of an intelligent design. How mystical is that? BTW, in some ways Quantum Physics have very similar perspective and dynamics IMHO. It can be used to explain a Kung Fu system; hence, the term Quan Fa (pugilistic system-method).

What do you fight with the mind, the body or both? Is the mind present or adscent when you are fighting? Do you become the slave of emotions or you use emotions to your advantage? Do we know these factors apply to our opponent just the same it applies to us for sure? If so how to "prove" it?

I consider myself more of a mystic but I don't talk about anything being "secret". The plans (pun intended) are there in plain sight. Do you have the eye for it that's up to you. As my teachers and mentors said "Kung Fu is in the details there is no secret."

Everything can be explained by science but science can't explain everything ( I just made that up).

Agreed.

If you discount chi because you are "scientific", you are failing on both levels as a scientist and as a martial artist. Not until you directly experience that which you lampoon should you make any assumptions and if you try the techniques in a half-arsed way never expecting results, guess what? You wont get any. Do you really think thousands before us would have wasted their time for nothing?

I am sorry. You kind of lost me there.

Oh.. and please, the next person who speaks about Quantum Physics and kung fu, please understand it first... in other words... shhhhhhhhhhh

Well, you are entitled to your opinion for sure. I would suggest that you watch the movie "What the bleep do we know!?"

Mantis108

[jacksawild]

Are you suggesting these were all built by heuristic method? Chinese civilization and it's extention is but a miracle? I hate to break the news to you, my friend. Chinese has mathematics and science thousands of years ago.

Hello mantis108. I think you perhaps misunderstood me so I'll explain a little about me. My backround is in mathematics and I have a deep interest in physics so what I was saying was that the old masters didn't have access to the mathematics we have today to explain concepts like gravity and complex equations. The advent of calculus and logarithms didn't come until Isaac Newton and John Napier in the 17th century. Even if the mathematics of the processes involved, where chi is the claimed contributory factor, were understood it wouldn't be much use to a martial artist and so I wasn't deriding their method, rather I was praising it's effectiveness.

Qi is not lumping everything mysterious that we don't understand and label it as such. That's ignorant people who has no idea what Qi is that do that.

Again, you seem to have perceived my opinion as the opposite of my intent. Chi is the energy on which all things are built, the list of forces I gave to quantify chi was not meant to be exhaustive but an example of how our western science splits a simple truth into many factors to explain seperate processes. Those who understand energy (in a science way) and those who understand chi know that all processes work in exactly the same way even a push is identical to a pull depending on your relative position and there is no such thing as motion. My point was that chi can be explained (in a western way) it's just that no one has yet explained it.

So if you think you are the ONLY enlightened "scientist" who have figured everything out, please think again. The fact that Chinese have very little interest in building crazy machines and tools to "experience" the world is because it is our cultural bias (if you will) to adhere to nature and to be holistic (ie Daoism).

hmm... Your words, not mine.

You are certainly entitiled to your opinion. Personally, no offense, I find that it lacks a certain maturity in the thought process. There is a leap of faith into science and justifying the means by the end in your arguement.

I try to make no assumptions about anything, I have a methodical way of thinking which I have trained myself to acheive. Please explain how I lack maturity, I am more than willing to be proved wrong but I will require proof.

First and foremost, not one needs to learn to fight. As you said you/we are "naturally" wired to do so. So why bother with a "fighting system"? Just make a fist and start kicking and punching. Now if you insist on a "fighting system" that would means a "design" is involved right? In that case, could you enlighten us with your "fighting system" in its entirity in the simplest manner possible?

Fighting system, to me, means being well practiced in techniques. It will not teach you to fight, that comes with bad luck and experience.

Qi simply is a unified theory that unites the mind-body continuum with the space-time continuum. It simply is a plan or map (just like any architectural plan) of an intelligent design. How mystical is that? BTW, in some ways Quantum Physics have very similar perspective and dynamics IMHO. It can be used to explain a Kung Fu system; hence, the term Quan Fa (pugilistic system-method).

That's quite mystical. Define intelligent design and how on earth is it being mapped. Are you talking anatomy? Also, Quantum Physics talks about sub-atomic particles. Without exception all of it's theories break down in the macro world, the one on which we operate. People talk about the uncertainty principle, wave-particle duality and the principle of opposites and link it to mystical thinking but it's nothing new these principles exist throughout nature and are there for all to see. If you throw a rock into the sea the reason you can't predict where it lands has nothing to do with Quantum physics' uncertainty principle. We now that the oceans waves are made of millions of single drops of water but that has nothing to do with wave-particle duality. Magnets attract or repel depending on presented opposites..... well that does have to do with quantum physics in a way but it has nothing to do with the priciple of opposites. Just because the principles are similar does not link them in any meaningful way.

What do you fight with the mind, the body or both? Is the mind present or adscent when you are fighting? Do you become the slave of emotions or you use emotions to your advantage? Do we know these factors apply to our opponent just the same it applies to us for sure? If so how to "prove" it?

I consider myself more of a mystic but I don't talk about anything being "secret". The plans (pun intended) are there in plain sight. Do you have the eye for it that's up to you. As my teachers and mentors said "Kung Fu is in the details there is no secret."

Mantis108

"First learn Kung Fu, then learn to fight" - My master.

[jacksawild]

If you discount chi because you are "scientific", you are failing on both levels as a scientist and as a martial artist. Not until you directly experience that which you lampoon should you make any assumptions and if you try the techniques in a half-arsed way never expecting results, guess what? You wont get any. Do you really think thousands before us would have wasted their time for nothing?

I am sorry. You kind of lost me there.



Well, you are entitled to your opinion for sure. I would suggest that you watch the movie "What the bleep do we know!?"

Mantis108

What I was saying was that people who claim to be scientists and discount chi as mystical and therefore worthless are infact betraying science because they have not tested it. Assumption is bad in science. My second point was that Kung Fu is science by a different name. The science of combat and movement.

I will watch that film, thank you. It seems you have some interest in quantum physics, which I encourage wholeheartedly, so here is a link to a site where you can watch a series of programs by Dr Brian Greene, it explains what we know and what we don't know about the universe. It'll probably only reinforce your opinion but hey, that's cool, I could be wrong

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html

[David Jamieson]

Scientists, that actually are scientists as opposed to armchair article reading variety that will more often than not publish critiques as opposed to studies..do not for teh most part discount the idea of chi or life force.

There is a measure of it. It's called " a lifetime". lol

But as a terminological thing narrowed to a single source...well taht's not going to happen because chi manifests as many different aspects and flows through all living things.

so nailing it down as electrivity or breath, or air, or fa.rts, or whatever is incorrect from the get go. It isn't any of those things and at the same time, it is all of those things.

[mantis108]

Hello mantis108. I think you perhaps misunderstood me so I'll explain a little about me. My backround is in mathematics and I have a deep interest in physics so what I was saying was that the old masters didn't have access to the mathematics we have today to explain concepts like gravity and complex equations. The advent of calculus and logarithms didn't come until Isaac Newton and John Napier in the 17th century. Even if the mathematics of the processes involved, where chi is the claimed contributory factor, were understood it wouldn't be much use to a martial artist and so I wasn't deriding their method, rather I was praising it's effectiveness.

Thanks for the clarification. If I have misunderstood you therefore misinterpreted your post, then I am sorry. My apologies.

While it is true that many old masters didn't have access to the mathematics, or education for that matter, we have today, they do have mathematics at their disposal. We could argue which type of math, how much or how many of them would have used it but to say those who develop the theories on Qi as well as Kung Fu systems didn't employ mathematic isn't an accurate statement. I am a little sensitive about people tend to think that Kung Fu simply is trial and error, which is contrary to the evidences that are available, if we care to do a little investigation and research. I merely wanted to point to the fact that there is more to it than meet the eyes and people should do a little more research into it before jumping to conculsion.

Again, you seem to have perceived my opinion as the opposite of my intent. Chi is the energy on which all things are built, the list of forces I gave to quantify chi was not meant to be exhaustive but an example of how our western science splits a simple truth into many factors to explain seperate processes. Those who understand energy (in a science way) and those who understand chi know that all processes work in exactly the same way even a push is identical to a pull depending on your relative position and there is no such thing as motion. My point was that chi can be explained (in a western way) it's just that no one has yet explained it.

Well, I think the wording of your first paragraph gave me the impression that you seems to suggest the ancient masters have little to no clue of what they were doing and they just happen to get things "happening". While I agreed that Qi can be explained in a western way, we can also let people learn about its explanations in the language and culture that it came from. This is the reason why I proposed looking into Quantum Physics in the first place. I do understand that there are those who feels Quantum Physics is too mystical in nature ( I also outlined my position on that already). I guess it's to each their own.

I try to make no assumptions about anything, I have a methodical way of thinking which I have trained myself to acheive. Please explain how I lack maturity, I am more than willing to be proved wrong but I will require proof.

Well, I am sorry about my initial comments in picturing you as taking the side of "science fundamentalists". Now your clarification makes it clear that it isn't so. "Lack of maturity" was perhaps a bit harsh and rash on my part. But the way your first 2 paragraphs that were worded, does seem jumping to conclusion fairly quickly and decidedly. Certainly a seasoned scientist or learned scholar would not form an opinion without puting in place qualifers and examples. Again, I don't mean to offend and I am glad that you clarified your post.

Fighting system, to me, means being well practiced in techniques. It will not teach you to fight, that comes with bad luck and experience.

Am I to understand that this means your definition of fighting system does not include the use of strategies derived from style specific philosophy? A fight system is but a skill set?

That's quite mystical. Define intelligent design and how on earth is it being mapped. Are you talking anatomy? Also, Quantum Physics talks about sub-atomic particles. Without exception all of it's theories break down in the macro world, the one on which we operate. People talk about the uncertainty principle, wave-particle duality and the principle of opposites and link it to mystical thinking but it's nothing new these principles exist throughout nature and are there for all to see. If you throw a rock into the sea the reason you can't predict where it lands has nothing to do with Quantum physics' uncertainty principle. We now that the oceans waves are made of millions of single drops of water but that has nothing to do with wave-particle duality. Magnets attract or repel depending on presented opposites..... well that does have to do with quantum physics in a way but it has nothing to do with the priciple of opposites. Just because the principles are similar does not link them in any meaningful way.

I believe there is thread and a very long discussion of intelligent design on this forum. I will see if I can find the thread.

We are now able to map out the human genom (all creatures for that matter) because the discovery of DNA. BTW, DNA (formed by 4 protien molecules) is kind of reminiscent of Si Xiang (4 phenomena) from the Yijing. There are theories out there that the gravity pull between the moon and the earth might be the reason why DNA structure has the double helix feature. Scientist also recently observed in an event that is believed to be a supernova that a large double helix formation of "star dust" (possibly gravitational pull at work) is found near by. So is there a relationship between the behavier of molecules that of the human body, gravity and the celestrial bodys in the universe? You can be the judge of that. BTW, human body is 80-90 % water. If the moon has effects on ocean tides, would it not have effects on human's fluids (ie blood)? Interestingly, there is a book about Qigong from Han dynasty nearly 2000 years old by a famous Daoist that noted the moon phase and used it to theorized on Qigong practice. So the fact that many people talked about or appeared to have learned Qigong yet they have not studied classical theories of it. How can we expect them to teach their student properly? It's no wonder that Qi being viewed as some hocus pocus mumbo jumbo.

"First learn Kung Fu, then learn to fight" - My master.

Thank you for sharing that.

Regards

Mantis108