CKF Application Clips.

[taaigihk]

The Chinese characters for "Weito" or the proper spelling in Mandarin Pingyin is "Weituo" are:

六合韋陀門 - Liu He Wei Tuo Men (6 Harmonie Guardian Warrior Wei Tuo Gate)

Here are some info regarding 韋陀 that I wrote awhile ago:



Mantis108

Thanks for the info.
I searched for it in "Zhonghua wushu shiyong baike" and found an entry for 韋陀六合拳. Probably the same thing. You may take a look at the attached photos (don't have a scanner). Maybe you'll find something interesting for you.

[Hendrik]

Thanks for the info.
I searched for it in "Zhonghua wushu shiyong baike" and found an entry for 韋陀六合拳. Probably the same thing. You may take a look at the attached photos (don't have a scanner). Maybe you'll find something interesting for you.

Thanks for the weito scan photo.

Reading the weito1 scanning photo raise a question in my mind --- Does anyone has trained with the type of description on breathing and ....

IMHHO, this stuffs is not that nature at all. It seems forcefull breathing from inhale and exhale description. Thus, I wonder how is it going to generate Zhen Qi. It seems it is a hard bow art that using compressing, or even stop breathing at some points ...etc instead of the Dao mimic Nature principle.

But those are just my view. I can be wrong. Care to discuss?

[mantis108]

Hi Taaigihk, Hendrik and All,

Thank you for the scan. I would think it's the same style we are talking about here. Personally, I wouldn't take this type of book's info seriously. It's far too brief and generic to form an opinion on any style.

Having said that there's some honesty about what is disclosed in the description.

What it basically wanted to convey IMHO is the importance of the faculty of eyes (Yan Fa), which is something very important to the traditional styles. It conveys the idea of Wu Gan (martial feeling) as well as focus of movements. Here it used the analogy of battle field commands where the eyes are compared to the colors which signal the troops to perform designated tasks. The troops go where the colors go. But this analogy is kind of a clinche.

As for the six harmony concept. It's even more generic. But then it does differs from the so-called internal style's six harmony. The Gong training exercises named are also quite common in most other styles of Kung Fu. So it is not surprising to find that the breathing is rather forceful in nature. But this doesn't necessarily say that it is an "external" style.

Personally, all styles of Kung Fu as long as it has solid traditional background, they will be both internal and external (yin and yang as one) at the same time. The arguement about which is internal and which is not is divisive and counter productive. It is a marketing plot that get out of control. We should not perpetuate that as serious martial artists.

Just a thought.

Regards

Mantis108

[Eric Ling]

Hi everybody,

Sunday evening – should be sleeping but hey just got back from teaching and the body/mind is still going…..

Hendrik, you misunderstood me. I meant he was talking in his Cantonese that I am not used to.

Anyway, you know Master Ku; his hands will do most, if not all, the talking. His 2 handed techniques are really something. Ignorantly, I don’t normally associate this form with Wing Chun; high-low straight punch, po pai shou, double shearing hands maybe…..

Robert, it’s interesting that you wrote Weito inspired 7th road Lohan.and taaigihk, thanks for those photos. I got the same book but I never bothered to go deep.

Weito, the little that I know, is supposedly a very old Northern style; quite apparently so. Typical Northern gestures and flavors and applications.

The “old” part is not a hunch.

Some postures could be forerunners of some later day’s arts.

Take the opening sequence for instance, after the forward palm strike, the right hand is pulled back and the body goes into a “twist” stance and the left hand does a punch.

This, I believe, is the “classical” form of “fist under elbow” in Tai Chi.

From this posture, the leap and 2 downward punches with fists resting the thighs.

In Weito, this is “Wushong Beating Tiger”. I think 7 Stars do a technique almost akin to this except that in 7 Star, the protruding leg is a floor slide kick.

Well anyhow, if only I had been closer to my Weito teacher, I might have got a lot more out of him; history, principles blah blah blah….

Well, certain things are not meant to be.

Got 2 more clips here to share.

Both from Wuzhu and they’re “intermediate” level forms.

Clip 1: “Da Mei Hwa” or “Big Plum Blossom”. There is also a “small” version in the syllabus.

Clip 2: “Poisonous Snake Obstructing Path”. SPM players should find the continuous hand sequences interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE1SEgpcRSs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnA32dap4Lw

Regards.

[Hendrik]

Hi everybody,



Hendrik, you misunderstood me. I meant he was talking in his Cantonese that I am not used to.

Anyway, you know Master Ku; his hands will do most, if not all, the talking. His 2 handed techniques are really something. Ignorantly, I don’t normally associate this form with Wing Chun; high-low straight punch, po pai shou, double shearing hands maybe…..



Regards.

Eric,

Thanks for the details. hahaha.

You guys must be having a great time.

Yup, the kuen kuit said " Kang Sau up and down differentiate Yin and Yang"

"double push hand deflect force in balance manner "..... all the two arms stuffs...

there are two arms against one arm, one arm against two arms......




Peace
Hendrik

[Eric Ling]

Hi Hendrik,

Got Master Ku on tape.

Will convert this to digital format and post some clips of him in action.

Peace brother.

[taaigihk]

I would think it's the same style we are talking about here. Personally, I wouldn't take this type of book's info seriously. It's far too brief and generic to form an opinion on any style.

Having said that there's some honesty about what is disclosed in the description.

What it basically wanted to convey IMHO is the importance of the faculty of eyes (Yan Fa), which is something very important to the traditional styles. It conveys the idea of Wu Gan (martial feeling) as well as focus of movements. Here it used the analogy of battle field commands where the eyes are compared to the colors which signal the troops to perform designated tasks. The troops go where the colors go. But this analogy is kind of a clinche.

As for the six harmony concept. It's even more generic. But then it does differs from the so-called internal style's six harmony. The Gong training exercises named are also quite common in most other styles of Kung Fu. So it is not surprising to find that the breathing is rather forceful in nature. But this doesn't necessarily say that it is an "external" style.


Mantis108

You're right. On many occasions those descriptions fit to many styles. Even if the styles actually look different. Nevertheless sometimes you may spot something interesting in them.

As for Weituoliuhe, I also looked at Wan Laisheng's "Wushu huizong" and it says that his Liuhe is of Weituo men. There's a whole chapter on it, as you probably know.

These are clips of two Liuhe forms from Lai Wansheng's Fujian successors line:

http://www.hc360.com/webad/1.mov

http://www.hc360.com/webad/2.mov

I think they even call it Liuheziranmen. Looks quite similar to what Eric Ling posted. Perhaps it's something closely related.

[Eric Ling]

Hi,

Thanks for the links – have not seen “Natural Boxing” for a while now.

Honestly, I think LiuHe Weito is as “Chang Quan” as they come. Typical Northern features, like I said earlier, postures, rhythm, intent blah blah blah….

The LiuHe is really very generic, as pointed out by Robert. Numerous styles, across the spectrum, use this for their philosophies.

Like Bau Gua for instance, I cannot recall the number of Bau Gau empty-hands, stick, spear, knife forms I’ve encountered.

I think “Weito Men” has its place for historians because the origin is so obscure maybe?

I know I am crazy about a Northern form called “Mei Hua Jie Quan” or “Plum Blossom Fast Fists” for the same reason. Who invented this form? What styles practice this?

As a kid, I was given a book on this form. Never really paid close attention because the entire book is written in “archaic” Mandarin which is not my thing.

Now this form is really captivating because interspersed in this seemingly “Northern” form, I find many Southern Fukien White Crane techniques; the single knuckle punch, the spreading wing hands and even a “beak hand” posture that is almost certainly White Crane.

Which White Crane boxer designed this Northern form or which Northern Master did this White Crane form???

Maybe I should think about taking up “Mad Monk” boxing hahaha…..

Regards.

[Eric Ling]

“Personally, all styles of Kung Fu as long as it has solid traditional background, they will be both internal and external (yin and yang as one) at the same time. The arguement about which is internal and which is not is divisive and counter productive. It is a marketing plot that get out of control. We should not perpetuate that as serious martial artists.”

Hi Robert,

Ditto.

And there I was wondering why all my teachers taught me the “wrong” thing; that kung fu is both external and internal and to have one you must have the other. Errrrh, if I am not wrong, even the Japanese are saying the same thing.

So it’s a marketing spin…hmmmm……

In the words of Kismet; you da man.

Regards.

[mantis108]

“Personally, all styles of Kung Fu as long as it has solid traditional background, they will be both internal and external (yin and yang as one) at the same time. The arguement about which is internal and which is not is divisive and counter productive. It is a marketing plot that get out of control. We should not perpetuate that as serious martial artists.”

Hi Robert,

Ditto.

And there I was wondering why all my teachers taught me the “wrong” thing; that kung fu is both external and internal and to have one you must have the other. Errrrh, if I am not wrong, even the Japanese are saying the same thing.

So it’s a marketing spin…hmmmm……

In the words of Kismet; you da man.

Regards.

Thank you, my friend for the kind words. I would like to further address this before my thoughts got lost on me again [I am quite short term memory challenged these days. ]. Hope you don't mind.

I don't think the teachers meant to "taught wrong". As human we have limitations when it comes to the reality of space-time, we can only do or learn so much at a time. So prioritizing is inevitable. It's a matter of perspective; hence, the famous line "We can only take you to the doorway and you have to make the decision to enter or not." The best any teacher can do is to present to us the entry way to the secret garden that he once took and also those he found on the way to get to the various "sections" of the garden. There are times we would be able to see the water feature, the rest stops or whatever. Hopefull someday, we can behold and enjoy the full view of the garden at once. Chinese culture dictates that we as youngsters don't question until we are of age. So we would think that everything we were told are truth and facts. Until one day we as the pupil are ready and the true master came in whatever form that may be and we get IT.

For years, I have been taught or conditioned to do Qigong meditations (an integral component of Kung Fu) with Dan Tian being the most important. I met a mentor recently who does Islamic meditation as well as a number of counter parts. He explained why he felt the Dan Tian is not where we should focus and it makes sense (with his demonstration of his meditation "skill") Now this contradicts greatly will all the disciplines that I know. So what am I to do? Should I just leave whatever that I was doing and follow, this path that's presented to me or should I just keep doing what I was doing and disregard the "new" info? Well, I found the third option, which includes looking deeper into what I was taught from the beginning. I search deeper in knowledge and wisdom; and found the path that I feel most comfortable with based on the old and have the new as the new found strength that allows me to forge further ahead (in actuality going backward).

The thing is both of them are valid and both of them are heading towards the same destination. But the path that I took out of the two would be very different. The old path (the kung fu path) would lead me to Wisdom that would seem rigid and cold. The new path would lead me to Compassion that would seem filled with humanity perhaps involved healing. So my heart said Wisdom it is. It doesn't mean that my mentor's path is wrong. It is just that my inclining and the environment is not the same as his. But I intented to trim my path so that one day Compassion will be just as integral component as Wisdom is in my path.

All in all on meeting my mentor, I learn that I should not be afraid of nor forget to change and constantly challenge my previous understanding and perspective. The source of that strength is in the meditation techniques which he showed me.

Warm regards

Robert

PS It would seem though, Eric, you are on the same path as mine.

[Hendrik]

Hi Hendrik,

Got Master Ku on tape.

Will convert this to digital format and post some clips of him in action.

Peace brother.

HI Eric,

Excellent!

I will wait for you posting his clip.

Peace

[Eric Ling]

Hi Robert and all,

Thanks for the last message; soul-searching in many ways.

Right, the teacher (knowledge) would appear when the student is ready. Express differently by different folks but the idea is identical.

IMHO, a lot of discrepancies witnessed today are not the result of “interpretation” but more of “ignorance”.

Our paths will converge at some point I am sure. At this time, I am still very bogged down with understanding and presenting what I have learned and it’s no walk in the park.

Okay a pic here from the “Plum Blossom Fast Fist” mentioned in my earlier message.

I tell you this form is one of my ghosts…..

Regards.

Oh yes, Hendrik, now that we are family I want to know this; how many styles of Kung Fu do you do really?

The truth now....hahaha and I don't want rocket science type answer from you okay

[Eric Ling]

Hi everybody,

Posting a basic stick form.

Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhieDS-778E

[TenTigers]

Eric,
which is the oldest version of sam jien kuen you are aware of? is there any fiitage that can be seen on youtube? I have seen five ancestors version, several white crane versions, of course the okinawan versions. I believe you had mentioned taizhu?
It's funny, I look at the Uechi and Goju versions and I don't see any one being closest to Jook Lum, but parts of each appear in the forms. Of course, trying to find the oldest, and thinking it will closest resemble Jook Lum is ridiculous, as Jook Lum has changed from Sifu to Sifu-("Gwok Si, Gwok Faht") and linking each to the short bridges in my Hung Kuen is not going to be direct but a linking, and connecting of the dots, and an unravelling of a chinese knot, but such is my journey.
(I always liked puzzles as a kid)

[Hendrik]

For years, I have been taught or conditioned to do Qigong meditations (an integral component of Kung Fu) with Dan Tian being the most important.

I met a mentor recently who does Islamic meditation as well as a number of counter parts.

He explained why he felt the Dan Tian is not where we should focus and it makes sense (with his demonstration of his meditation "skill") Now this contradicts greatly will all the disciplines that I know.

So what am I to do?

Should I just leave whatever that I was doing and follow, this path that's presented to me or should I just keep doing what I was doing and disregard the "new" info?

Well, I found the third option, which includes looking deeper into what I was taught from the beginning. I search deeper in knowledge and wisdom; and found the path that I feel most comfortable with based on the old and have the new as the new found strength that allows me to forge further ahead (in actuality going backward).

Robert,

could you please share more on the dan tien issues? what is the perspective of the Islamic meditation and counter parts. what does you mentor attain in his meditation?

Insteresting stuffs.

TIA