The detriment of kung fu form vs. partner work....

[Fu-Pow]

It's come to my attention lately that the detriment of kung fu is the lack of partner work to the exclusion of forms practice. Why do you think this is? What can be done about it?

We are producing generations of performers, not fighters.

Just about every kung fu technique can be practiced in some kind of partner drill from striking to joint locking. Not all can be practiced at significant speed but even slow practice is useful.

Taiji has pushhands practice which depending on the teacher can be very good.

But I think that this is the reason that "sport" fighters have an advantage. They have clearly established methods for practicing techniques with a living breathing partner in front of them. It is NOT that the techniques themselves are any better.

When you get into weapons the difficulty of practicing with a partner with any semblance of realism becomes greater.

How can we practice these things...ideas?

FP

[BigPandaBear]

Check out Daidojuku, that style has introduced a high level of competition and fighting prowess while maintaining a very traditional flavor. Heck, MMA types look at Daidojuku and are only impressed by it. Some even consider it "the real karate".

I definitely think that TCMAs can learn a lot from modern JMAs like Daidojuku, Judo, and Kyokushin. The key would be to reintroduce some level of full-contact competition to TCMAs. For this, you could completely copy Daidojuku's methods which allow a lot of "dirty" fighting techniques in a sportive atmosphere, yet maintains a high level of fighting prowess, tradition, and skill.

Secondly TCMAs can take the Kano approach; Dissect the techniques of the various TCMA schools and determine which techniques are useful, and what techniques aren't useful. Use modern science as your basis, and train those techniques to the point where they are efficient and can be constantly trained in a controlled environment.

Lastly restructure the forms to include only the techniques that are too dangerous/obsolete to be trained in the kwoon on a regular basis. That can include classical weapon forms, etc. You can look at Judo to see how dangerous/illegal techniques can be preserved even in a modern MAs.

[neilhytholt]

And when I say the same thing, Fu Pow puts me on his ignore list.

You guys are extremely hypocritical.

[MasterKiller]

Welcome to 1996.

[Royal Dragon]

It's not "What" he said, it's "How" he says it.

Seriously Neil, you are well on your way to inadvertantly pi$$ing off more people than me....in a shorter time...

[Fu-Pow]

Welcome to 1996.

Let's just say you're not the only one who left a teacher who only wanted to do forms.

[Wood Dragon]

I definitely think that TCMAs can learn a lot from modern JMAs like Daidojuku, Judo, and Kyokushin. The key would be to reintroduce some level of full-contact competition to TCMAs. For this, you could completely copy Daidojuku's methods which allow a lot of "dirty" fighting techniques in a sportive atmosphere, yet maintains a high level of fighting prowess, tradition, and skill.

Secondly TCMAs can take the Kano approach; Dissect the techniques of the various TCMA schools and determine which techniques are useful, and what techniques aren't useful. Use modern science as your basis, and train those techniques to the point where they are efficient and can be constantly trained in a controlled environment.

Lastly restructure the forms to include only the techniques that are too dangerous/obsolete to be trained in the kwoon on a regular basis. That can include classical weapon forms, etc. You can look at Judo to see how dangerous/illegal techniques can be preserved even in a modern MAs.

Agreed.

50% Kihon (technique and drills)
40% Sparring (full contact, with/without gear)
10% Kata

That's about how training breaks down in Daido Juku and Kyokushin.

Also: No fatties. Hit the track and Stairmaster.

[Ben Gash]

Nice to see an inclusive approach to martial arts there
The framework for success has always been there, it's just for some reason it's fallen by the wayside in the last 20 years or so. My Sifu always emphasises sticky hands and sparring (and our sticky hands isn't far off sparring anyway, and develops naturally into it), and it's heavy contact, bareknuckle, knees elbows and throws allowed. Consequently my classmates are all seriously tough fighters, and many of them are successful competitors. HOWEVER, everyone would also be guaranteed a top 3 finish in any Chinese forms division (and indeed many of them are national champions).
I think it's just a case of finding the right balance. I place equal importance on basics, forms and partner work in my classes, and I feel I get good results.
(of course it doesn't hurt that my top guys all do my San Shou class as well)

[Ben Gash]

OK, I just checked out dome daidojuku fights, and they look like my Kung Fu sparring sessions

[HearWa]

OK, I just checked out dome daidojuku fights, and they look like my Kung Fu sparring sessions

Well do kung fu a favor and put a few videos up on youtube of you guys sparring/competing!

[Ben Gash]

My students are all pretty junior. When they're a bit more experienced and have a bit more flavour then I'll put some stuff out there.

[MasterKiller]

Let's just say you're not the only one who left a teacher who only wanted to do forms.

I say this a lot, but once I started working out with MMA, my Kung Fu got better. I saw more applications in my forms, and I am pretty decent at applying a lot of them now. I started full-time MMA about 18 months ago, and it has completely changed my outlook on how to train kung fu to make it work.

Kung Fu has lots of good things you won't see in an MMA class. I have used Pheonix Eye Fists, for example, against my opponents inner thighs to open up his half-guard.

But while you can find just about every technique known to man in a kung fu form somewhere, if you aren't training it properly, you aren't going to be able to use it properly.

I 've been training a friend for about two years, 2 hours every Saturday. I use the training methods I learned in MMA with him, and with 2 years of training, 1 day a week, he has beat some of my kung fu brothers who practiced 4 to 5 days a week for years. He hasn't beaten all of them, mind you, but if he trained 3 days a week and watched his diet more closely I think he would have a decent shot at it. My point is, he became much better, much faster, than most CMA stylist would like to believe. I know for sure he is better than I was when I was at the 2-year mark.

[David Jamieson]

Um, what kungfu style doesn't include free form sparring to integrate the stylistic hallmarks into the fighting performance?

I wouldn't blanket all chinese martial arts under the mma perspective banner which lumps all cma into forms factories apparently.

Ultimately, I don't think it's really important because the perspective on it is incorrect.

CMA practice has always for me, whereever I study included the following

Basics - Strength and endurance development, calesthenics external devices
Form -What ever the forms are for the style
Force feedback - using the extrapolated techniques in bag work, mitts, pads, kick-shield.
Drills -either single extrapolations or attacks and defenses with a partner
Sanda - free sparring adjusting intensity according to attributes and skills of players

aside from this are more esoteric practices which will vary from teacher to teacher but usually include qigongs, meditation sometimes yoga, sometimes alternate inclusions like pilates and so on.

I think a lot of this perspective simply comes from those who would degrade tcma and show their preference for mma strictly, which frankly is based on probably not recievinbg training instruction in tcma or instead getting shoddy training in it from someone who likely shouldn't be training others in it.

typically, fight training is fight training and methods may vary, but results will be results.

anyway, i'll stick to the way I do it and pick up what I can from anywhere really. I have no qualms with borrowing stuff from anywhere as long as it produces results.

[MasterKiller]

But to answer your question, how do make it better?

My MMA class is something like this:

15 minutes warm-ups and stretching.

30 minutes of instruction and "walking through" the techniques being discussed with a partner

30 minutes of sparring.

Sometimes it's "situational" where I start in Position A and have to move to Submission C while my opponent has a similar gameplan to defend and/or change postition.

Sometimes it's free form where we start standing, but don't kick or punch. Go for the throw/takedown, work for submission, repeat for 5 minutes....

Sometimes it's San Shou rules (yeah, in MMA) boxing rounds with 14oz gloves, shin pads, etc...

Sometimes it's medium contact with the 4oz gloves and no protection.

15 minutes of combat conditioning -- sprints, etc..

[David Jamieson]

mk- that sounds like a kungfu class the 30 minute walkthrough would be drills or forms practice i guess with corrections, but the rest is same same more or less to many cma curriculums.