ATTN: Wing Chuners & Taiji-ers

[Three Harmonies]

I have a request for some well written information on the physiological and mechanical reasons that tucking the pelvis/hips is so important in many styles of Wing Chung, Taiji, and other CMA systems.
Basically I am doing some research into the reasoning behind this physical structure that everyone claims is found in the "classics." So any help in regards to source material would also be appreciated.
Feel free to email me privately too.
THanks
Jake
three_harmonies@hotmail.com

[air]

One of the most basic reasons why you would tuck your butt is (tailbone) to relieve the tension in your knees and direct it to your thighs, there are other reasons but I'd just thought I would mention one

[air]

Oh ya and it helps align your spine correctly , If you were just trying to have good posture in general you should tuck.

[Blacktiger]

Yep - builds a stronger structure

[cjurakpt]

One of the most basic reasons why you would tuck your butt is (tailbone) to relieve the tension in your knees and direct it to your thighs, there are other reasons but I'd just thought I would mention one

could you explain the biomechanics of this please?

[cjurakpt]

Oh ya and it helps align your spine correctly , If you were just trying to have good posture in general you should tuck.

why do you think that this "aligns" the spine? also, please define "good posture"...

[cjurakpt]

Yep - builds a stronger structure

same question: please define "stronger structure" in functional terms...

[cjurakpt]

to pre-empt a bit: I think what needs to be done is to delineate exactly what is going on biomechanically when you "tuck the pelvis/hips"

first, this is a very imprecise description - it really doesn't tell you anything specfically about the biomechanics of the joints in question; also, the pelvs and hips though joined move very differently; when you do a "tuck", you are essentially performing a posterior pelvic tilt (PPT), accompanied by decreasing the lordosis of the lumbar spine; this effects the hip joints by actually placing them into a relatively, albeit slightly, increased degree of hip extension (because we are talking about the relative angles of the femurs to the innnominates); additionally, if we break down the pelvic girdle some more, you are posteriorly rotating the two iliacs, and placing the sacrum into relative extension or counter-nutation depending on the nomenclature you use: essentially, this means that the sacral base (the top part that attaches to L5) is moving posteriorly (and slightly superiorly or inferiorly, depending on if it originated anterior or posterior to the angle of rotation, which is a transverse axis), while the sacaral apex (the low part, S4) and coccyx are moving relatively anteriorly

now, if you want to get "optimal" spinal alignment (which really is not a particularly well defined concept in terms of functional, dynamic biomechanics), tucking the pelvis is actually not considered desireable, according to the people who spend a lot of time on this topic (Rolfers, Alexander Technique, osteopaths, PT's), because you've taken out the lumbar curve and caused changes all the way up the chain as a result

personally, in my experience, I think the PPT "position" is incorrect - to wit, we don't use it in the style of TCC I practice: we use a much different concept in terms of how to aling the spine, actually starting from the feet and building up; doing a PPT actually "locks out" the pelvic region and creates strain, as well as impedence of ground reaction force from moving up to the head; I mean, if it's such a great biomechanical position, try walking with a PPT and see how efficient you are; TBH, I don't know where it came from and why it got to be such an important component of various styles - from a biomechanical perspective, it really limis movement of the entire spine, interfering with correct shoulder girdle function and putting the occipital cranial base under significantly increased tension, because of how th skull has to reorient

I am sure that many people will disagree, that's fine - I am sure many people are very comfortable in this position as well, so hey, whatever works for them - but from a biomechanical perspective, it just don't add up...

then of course, there's the physiological perspective in terms of the muscles, nerves, and viscera...

[imperialtaichi]

In my opinion only....

Tucking of the butt and tilting of the pelvis is a method of "locking in" of the upper and lower body for the purpose of generating "united" power. You will find that without the locking if you need to push hard the lumber/hip region becomes the weakest link, and you can only be as strong as your weakest link; where as once locked the body moves in a more united mannor. That's why you would see styles like WC, Bakmei and certain internal styles employing this energy method.

However, as you pointed out, over doing this limits your ability to flow and move, so for high level this becomes a weakness. So in my opinion, the intention of "unifying" is more important than the actually physically locking.

Cheers,
John

p.s. ah, this reminds me of my Bakmei friend who told me he could hold a coin between his butt cheeks and do the whole form without dropping the coin. So make sure you don't ask him for any spare change.

[JohnnyMnemonic]

I have a request for some well written information on the physiological and mechanical reasons that tucking the pelvis/hips is so important in many styles of Wing Chung, Taiji, and other CMA systems.
Basically I am doing some research into the reasoning behind this physical structure that everyone claims is found in the "classics." So any help in regards to source material would also be appreciated.
Feel free to email me privately too.
THanks
Jake
three_harmonies@hotmail.com

What's in it for me? I am writing my own books on the subject. Why would I give that away?

You have to know how the body really works before you can answer the question or understand the answer.

[Three Harmonies]

RIIIIIIIIIIIGHT!

[JohnnyMnemonic]

RIIIIIIIIIIIGHT!

I can make two guesses about that reply.

1) You are being sarcastic

2) You are purposefully not saying anything in the hopes I will talk more in order to prove what I say.


Why not just come out and talk to me? People still do that you know. Look someone in the face and talk about subjects of interest. No games, no psychological misdirection, just two regular people talking about something they both enjoy.

I have found that adults seem so caught up in power games, status plays and submission/dominance games that they never get anything done. That is my theory why adults go "stupid". You know how they say that after 30, no scientist ever invents anything new? They say it is because the energy of youth is gone.

I think it is because by the time they reach 30, they have been exposed to enough adults that they fall into the game of submission and dominance and forget all about science or whatever else they are interested in. I went to a science forums a few times to try to straighten people out. All I got was psychological games and power trips. Not a one of the scientists could focus on real science discussion. Their only concern was how did they appear to the other scientists.


I was going to give you a hint for free. It wouldn't do you any good I don't think. Most people don't have what it takes to figure this stuff out. An open mind, intellgence, free time, patience.....whatever it is. I could put the answer right in front of you and you wouldn't know it.

I think I will wait and see if there is another one word cryptic remark or not. That doesn't seem fun to me. I like to have fun.

[charyuop]

Personally I don't "tuck". I tried tucking when I started first and I could barely keep my balance, not to mention that to move a foot I had to kinda hop. If I align myself in the commencement without tucking and keeping that alignment during the whole form I have no problem of balance whatsoever.
As the master who showed me Tai Chi (he says to tuck) says, you should be able to kick with one of the feet in any stance....well, if I tuck I can't even lift the foot.
Right or wrong, it works for me.

[Three Harmonies]

I do not have time for silly little games. I posted a question and your reply was coy and assnine. If you have something to add, then feel free (again if you are confused about my question see post #1). If you are going to bait people and essentially say "I know the answer, but I am not going to tell." then bugger off.

Jake

[Michael Dasargo]

Hey Jake,

Hope Seatlle is treating you well bro. Here's a quick insight I have on the posterior pelvic tilt.

Anything biomechanical, whether Taiji, Tang Lang, Karate, Golf, Footbal, etc, relies on static and dynamic structural stabilization for maximum force production.

Mass x Acceleration = Force Production (aka Fa Jing). The posterior pelvic tilt (ppt) creates a triangle with the thoracic spine as the apex, and an "invisible" base from the front of the shoulders towards the front of the hips. This triangle is the link between the triangle in the legs (where the knee is the apex, and the base line running from the butt to the heel), and the triangle in the arm (where the elbow is the apex, and the base between the shoulder and wrist). The base of all three triangles align to create "an immovable mountain"; where oncoming force receives "normal force" from the ground.

For every action, there is an equal or greater reaction. In this case, the oncoming force is directed to the ground, thus the effortless "normal force" used to sustain the posture vs. oncoming resistance.

If the hips are rolled forward (a.p.t. anterior pelvic tilt), then the triangles are no longer stabilized and oncoming force that meets the arms leaks out of the scapula, thus creating imbalance (aka becoming uprooted).

Defensively, the ppt creates a hollow space where the vulnerable areas of the torso are commonly exposed with a.p.t.

But then again, I could be just pulling this out of my tuck.

Be easy,
M.Dasargo
NASM PES

PS
I'd like to request an autographed poster for when you become rich and famous