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Thread: The Yin Yang sign - What do you know about it?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by imperialtaichi
    And that you cannot have one without another; like can't have up without down, fast without slow, hot without cold etc.... that everything in the universe has yin and yang.

    Plus, in terms of power generating, the True Yang (the "fish eye") lies within the Yin. Hence to cultivate true power one must seek through the Yin, not the Yang.

    Cheers,
    John
    I was wondering when someone would write on this aspect. To me this is one of the most profound aspects to the taiji diagram. So is there a "True Yin" equivalent and what does it mean in martial terms?

  2. #32
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    Greetings..

    The Taiji Symbol is the "finger pointing at the moon".. no doubt, we can derive endless meanings from its graphics.. but, i think it's telling us to "seek the balance".. notice its symetry, its balance..
    Hence to cultivate true power one must seek through the Yin, not the Yang.
    While i understand this notion intellectually, it is my experience that nudges me back to the balance.. "true power" is manifested according to situational requirements, not a set pattern.. it is having the familiarity with the Yin/Yang relationship and the experience to utilize that relationship according to demands.. Yin/Yang and the multitude of contrasting principles are two sides of the same coin. To favor one over another is to cause imbalance. The "favor" we perceive regarding Yin over Yang is simply a signature of our usual imbalance which historically favors Yang. That is to say that most people have difficulty embracing their "dark" side or their feminine aspects.. but, it is what we are, we ARE both Yin AND Yang, and the implication to favor Yin is simply a "finger pointing" to balance, pointing to an inherent imbalance of excessive Yang attributes..

    Alan Watts reminds us that too often we fail to simply see things for what they are, we begin the deceptive analysis of "thinking".. My mentor used to say,"don't think, FEEL".. What "feeling" do you get when you observe the Symbol"?

    Be well..
    TaiChiBob.. "the teacher that is not also a student is neither"

  3. #33
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    That is one reason why I learned kung fu. To stop those bad kinds of people who always seemed to want to hold me down or keep me back.
    You attract these people through your behavior though (at least in this case). While I think the thread has some interesting comments aside from the attacks, you opened with an insult to another member of the forum. It gaurantees you're going to get a number of very negative reactions on this thread. Whether the guy deserved it or not, you chose to bring some personal issue into an otherwise fine question.

    Anyway, my view of the symbol would probably be closest to TaiChiBob's views on seeking balance out of life. While I'm not a philosopher by any means, I think it can lead to or show itself in a variety of ways in martial arts, though not allways in the same ways. For example, someone who does a very hard style of training where they beat the body up on a consistant basis might do qigong and other practices to help counter act the damage they do to themselves and extend their careers. Or use meditation to counteract negative effects of being over stressed mentally and physicaly, or keep from carrying over agression into other areas of their life where they don't need it. In taiji sometimes I see soft qigong mixed right into physically demanding forms rather than as seperate practices. The yin-yang symbol can be used to express a variety of things from very simple obvious ideas, to more complex philosophy There's no right or wrong answer though. As an artist, I find that people will often derive very different meanings from those intended in pictures and symbols from those originally intended, but that's fine (unless you're teaching history ).

  4. #34
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    The symbol is based on emprical observation and illustrates a universal cycle. If you can derive the 5 elements (wu Xing) from these movements, you know how to take care of yourself and also know how to combine movements to generate a logic for fighting and application usage.

    The generating cycle of the 5 elements, drawn from the Yin/Yang symbol, cited earlier indicates what patterns are in synch and what patterns are out of synch in order to remain in balance---this can go from eating, exercises, optimal times etc. etc.

    The destructive cycle, if you know the relationship of the element to posture and body part provides a logic for striking and attacking organs, body parts, directions etc. etc. If you believe in dian xue and points, then it will tell you what points to strike at, in what season, and what time of day in order to optimize damage

    Again this all derives from the Yin/Yang symbol and its relationship to universal movement as cited in the reference I earlier provided.

    Do you need this much explanation to fight well? No, you only need a system that incoporates it in both postures and movement. Its in your taiji, bagua, xing yi, baji and probably a few more systems I don't know of.
    "Its better to build bridges rather than dig holes but occasionally you have to dig a few holes to build the foundation of a strong bridge."

    "Traditional Northern Chinese Martial Arts are all Sons of the Same Mother," Liu Yun Qiao

  5. #35
    Its something like, the transformation of one thing into another through a dynamic equlibrium.

    big concepts into small simple words, is a difficult thing :-) to do that you need to know your audience....
    Last edited by Anderzander; 08-15-2006 at 04:10 PM.

  6. #36
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    Johnny, you have yet to either:

    a) say anything with any actual content, or

    b) respond with answers to any of the questions asked of you (e.g. who have you trained under, where, how long, what style, etc.).

    Until you do so, you really shouldn't expect anyone to take your BS posts seriously. Further, your failure to deny that you are, in fact, the same bizarre member who posted, and was banned, a year ago implies that that accusation may well be factual.

    You're a troll of the highest order, deluded and self-righteous. I suspect that you are the "fluff head," gleaning all your information from books and movies (as opposed to actual training).

    It's quite a bit of fun to watch how you dig deeper and deeper holes for yourself... Every word you type just makes you look worse than you already do.
    Matt Stone

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFT

    So is there a "True Yin" equivalent and what does it mean in martial terms?
    Hello Chee,

    Good question. To be honest, I don't know...

    All I know is a saying "Yi Yang bu jin ren bu si, yi Yin bu jin bu zhen xian" which means "a person would not die if the yang is not depleted, and a person would not become immortal if the yin is NOT depleted." (I think it's originated from Zhong Nan San Chuen Zhen Pai Lung Men, but don't quote me on that.)

    Scott, TCB, Omarthefish, anyone?

    Cheers,
    John
    Dr. J Fung
    www.kulowingchun.com

    "打得好就詠春,打得唔好就dum春"

  8. #38
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    Greetings..

    One of my personal criteria for evaluation of matters such as the Yin/Yang symbol is longevity and timeless application.. The symbol seems to maintain its simplicity while being applicable at so many levels over millenia of time, that says much about its value.. Like the Tao Te Ching, the principles are nearly universal in their interpretations.. but, i keep the perspective that the meanings we assign to the symbol are only interpretations.. the creator(s) didn't leave instructions, cryptic or otherwise..
    "a person would not die if the yang is not depleted, and a person would not become immortal if the yin is NOT depleted."
    As an example, the quoted phrase served its purpose in the time it was authored, but.. with current knowledge and an understanding of such things as biology, physics, and subtle inner workings of the human energy fields, we can better understand the phrase's implications, and its misconceptions.. we know that extremes are harmful, that if Yin is depleted the unbalance would be irreversable.. there is clearly the implication from the symbol that there is always Yin within Yang and vice versa.. Yin/Yang are inseparable, as they exist only by comparison to each other..

    I sense that it is the simplicity of "feeling" the symbol's meanings that adds the value of timelessness to it.. that the more we attach interpretations of past or current limits of knowledge we actually degrade some of that value..

    A great challenge put to me was to let go of "words" and mental chatter and just observe the symbol's relationship to "Life".. it was difficult not to look at the symbol and attach the meanings and words i had spent years contemplating.. but, when i did, finally, the power of its simplicity was overwhelming.. the brilliance of its creator(s) shone brightly.. as my friend once pointed out, plants do not need to know and understand the properties of sunlight to grow.. the symbol, like sunlight, will affect each of us according to our needs.. and, by interpretative analysis, we distance ourselves from the symbol's ability to directly transmit a simpler but more profound message.. Try observing the symbol as a Mandala, an object of focus in meditation.. understanding that, ultimately, the point of meditation is to suspend rational thought and to simply experience things "as they are".. it is from this perspective that "truth" is revealed.. contriving cryptic meanings or attaching personal preferences hides the "truth", it paints it in our favored prejudices.. By simply observing the nature of the symbol, we keep its timeless quality..

    Be well..
    TaiChiBob.. "the teacher that is not also a student is neither"

  9. #39
    cjurakpt Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by fiercest tiger View Post
    Hi cjurakpt

    What style of taiji are you learning?
    regards
    Garry
    I practice an older (I was told "pre-Beijing") version of what whold be typically referred to as Yang family, although my teacher's (Master Sat Chuen Hon - www.dantao.com) teacher (Master Ham King Koo) always referred to it as Wu Dang Internal Work Tai Chi. Difference-wise, it has several moves in it that other Yang I have seen doesn't, the flow of the form is a bit different (hard to explain, easy to see), we also still do the jumps, spins, low spinning / high jumping kicks at an advanced level; also, the names of some of the moves are translated differently (e.g. - Dan Bin = Cinnabar Transformation, versus Single Whip) or are different in general (e.g. - instead of Cloud Hands [wan sao], it's called Bear Walk [hung haang]);

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by imperialtaichi View Post
    Hello Chee,

    Good question. To be honest, I don't know...

    All I know is a saying "Yi Yang bu jin ren bu si, yi Yin bu jin bu zhen xian" which means "a person would not die if the yang is not depleted, and a person would not become immortal if the yin is NOT depleted." (I think it's originated from Zhong Nan San Chuen Zhen Pai Lung Men, but don't quote me on that.)

    Scott, TCB, Omarthefish, anyone?

    Cheers,
    John
    Hi John and Chee,

    There is a somewhat Hsien Taoist perspective that states one must have a specific amount of Yang or excess Yang in order to become immortal. From this perspective one must have a large store of Yang in their tan tien and then harmonize their Yin energy with their Yang energy. According to this perspective there is such thing as Absolute Yang and Absolute Yin energies. Yin energy cannot be felt since it is insubstantial, but may be sensed according to the effects it implies when interacting with the Yang energy. If one cannot store a sufficient amount of Yang and harmonize it with the Yin properly they cannot become physically Immortal. According to this view, material bodies are Yang, therefore one requires excessive Yang to be stored in order to preserve the body or a manifestation of it after physical death.

    From a certain perspective one could label something as Absolute Yin or Absolute Yang, but from another perspective one could say it is not so. Let us take light as an example, light is Yang energy. From one perspective it is always Yang; darkness would always be Yin. But as we know Yin and Yang occur only as dynamic contrasting phenomena, without one we cannot have the other. If we take a light bulb and contrast it with sunlight, the light bulb is Yin to the sunlight’s Yang. While both are classified as Yang energies since they are both light in contrast with each other, one is Yin and the other Yang. Therefore, the light from the light bulb is either Yin or Yang according to the context with which we are contrasting it. This is actually a very good illustration of the principle: Yin IS Yang and Yang IS Yin!
    Last edited by Scott R. Brown; 08-16-2006 at 08:54 AM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    From a certain perspective one could label something as Absolute Yin or Absolute Yang, but from another perspective one could say it is not so. Let us take light as an example, light is Yang energy. From one perspective it is always Yang; darkness would always be Yin. But as we know Yin and Yang occur only as dynamic contrasting phenomena, without one we cannot have the other. If we take a light bulb and contrast it with sunlight, the light bulb is Yin to the sunlight’s Yang. While both are classified as Yang energies since they are both light in contrast with each other, one is Yin and the other Yang. Therefore, the light from the light bulb is either Yin or Yang according to the context with which we are contrasting it. This is actually a very good illustration of the principle: Yin IS Yang and Yang IS Yin!
    Out of curiosity wouldn’t it be more apt to say that the light bulb and the sun are both yang but are merely different magnitudes of yang? From our perspective they’re the same thing, they’re both light, they’re not opposing or opposite, they both go in the same direction just to widely varying degrees.

    So using the same analogy would you say that a glass of water and an ocean of water are yin and yang or are they both yin but to different magnitudes?

    Truthfully this question stems from my inability to fully grasp yin yang theory, my Sifu always laughs when he sees the look on my face when he starts talking about yin yang theory. I suppose I need another few decades of training
    - Max

    ==================================================

    Enjoy everything, you might as well...

    The best thing about Shao-lin is that it very quickly shows you exactly how weak you are.

  12. #42
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    ultimately, no yin and no yang
    Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po
    You then walk backwards, forcing him off his feet and then drag him by the eye socket and lips. You can pull so hard that the lips tear away. You will never hear such screaming.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Tingjid View Post
    Truthfully this question stems from my inability to fully grasp yin yang theory, my Sifu always laughs when he sees the look on my face when he starts talking about yin yang theory. I suppose I need another few decades of training
    I don't know if this is any use - but one of the things that helped me understand the symbol was realising that it is dynamic not static. It should be moving.

    Imagine two immiscible liquids, like oil and water, in a round bowl. If you then span the bowl generating a centrifual force that moved the liquids out into the shapes they are on the diagram. Taiji is created by movement.

    The other thing is to think that as one think ascends the other descends - but always keeping a balance. Internal movement of weight and mind within the body create empty and full within yourself - when you can give up yourself and synchronise with your partner you can meet his fullness with emptiness and you can blend with his movement and channel his fullness back to him.

    Thats the transformation.

    hth

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Anderzander View Post
    I don't know if this is any use - but one of the things that helped me understand the symbol was realising that it is dynamic not static. It should be moving.

    Imagine two immiscible liquids, like oil and water, in a round bowl. If you then span the bowl generating a centrifual force that moved the liquids out into the shapes they are on the diagram. Taiji is created by movement.

    The other thing is to think that as one think ascends the other descends - but always keeping a balance. Internal movement of weight and mind within the body create empty and full within yourself - when you can give up yourself and synchronise with your partner you can meet his fullness with emptiness and you can blend with his movement and channel his fullness back to him.

    Thats the transformation.

    hth
    hi people ...

    good post from Anderzander ... below is a bit of my current/evolving understanding of the taiji symbol.

    a definition of tai chi

    tai chi = catalyst (im·pe·tus) for change

    catalyst=
    one that precipitates a process or event,
    especially without being involved in or changed by the consequences:

    for= intended to be used or received by; because of

    change= make or become different
    to give a completely different form or appearance to; transform:
    to give and receive reciprocally; interchange: change places.
    ==================================================
    wuji is the state of nothingness

    movement is the catalyst from wuji to tai chi.

    movement causes yin and yang to combine and create tai chi

    as soon as movement begins yin and yang are separated/differentiated, and that creates tai chi

    tai chi represents the transition from hard to soft and soft to hard with each maintaining a small amount of the other.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  15. #45
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    Thanks TCBob and Scott for your insight. This is a good thread.

    Cheers,
    John
    Dr. J Fung
    www.kulowingchun.com

    "打得好就詠春,打得唔好就dum春"

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