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Thread: The Yin Yang sign - What do you know about it?

  1. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Tingjid View Post
    Out of curiosity wouldn’t it be more apt to say that the light bulb and the sun are both yang but are merely different magnitudes of yang? From our perspective they’re the same thing, they’re both light, they’re not opposing or opposite, they both go in the same direction just to widely varying degrees.

    So using the same analogy would you say that a glass of water and an ocean of water are yin and yang or are they both yin but to different magnitudes?
    Hi Tingjid,

    It isn’t really a matter of whether it is apt or not, it is a matter of perspective. Your view is valid from a specific perspective. Just as the view of Absolute Yin and Absolute Yang are valid from their perspective and that light from a light bulb is Yin in contrast to the light from the sun being Yang. All are correct according to the perspective with which we view the phenomena, but none of them can be considered "Absolutely True" as in, True under all circumstances. They are true only according to the specific context or perspective from which they are viewed.

    What is important for us is that we do not limit our perspective. To limit our perspective is to limit our understanding of the principles of Tao.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by imperialtaichi View Post
    Hello Chee,

    Good question. To be honest, I don't know...

    All I know is a saying "Yi Yang bu jin ren bu si, yi Yin bu jin bu zhen xian" which means "a person would not die if the yang is not depleted, and a person would not become immortal if the yin is NOT depleted." (I think it's originated from Zhong Nan San Chuen Zhen Pai Lung Men, but don't quote me on that.)

    Scott, TCB, Omarthefish, anyone?

    Cheers,
    John
    I' ve never heard that saying before but bases on the context and translation it sound like you would write it like this:

    以阳不尽人不死; 以阴不尽人不成仙


    I know that the last two characters don't match perfectly with the pinyin you gave but "zhen xian" doesn't match linguistically so I am guessing that you just misread or misheard the second to the last character readin "cheng" as "zhen" Otherwise I read it:

    以阳不尽人不死; 以阴不尽人不真仙

    But my comment is not on that last bit anyways. I think the part more relevant to the quote AND to the discussion is the use of the word "jin"/尽 which you tranlsated as "deplete" and I think that "deplete" is a deceptive choice.

    The word "jin" CAN have that meaning but it also has other more nebulous meanings like "the end" or "complete". The common thread between "deplete", "complete" and "end" and the other things that "jin" could mean is that they are all variations on the theme of something being carried out to the final extremety. So yin or yang do not have to be "depleted". In fact they could be expanded or developed in order for a "man no not die" or for a person to "achieve immortality". In fact, it could be the opposite. It could be a matter of them following their natural course out to the end.

    In the basic theory of the taiji, that's what happens. Yang does not necessarily have to get depleted to produce yin. Yin is also produced by an excess of yang. Like inhaling. You are not forced to exhale because the air you inhaled it gone. It's because you have inhaled as far as you can. Throw something up in the air (yang) and it comes down (yin) when the point of MAXIMUM yang has been reached (the highest point in the arc).

    Getting back to the context of the quote again, which seems to be a comment on personal cultivation, in seeking a balance between yin and yang in the body, you could deal with excess yang by dampening it or by "depleting" it or you could deal with that problem by "adding" or tonifying/strengthening yin.

    So like .....uh....."jin" often represents and extreme as opposed to a lack.

  3. #48
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    Smile Hi Omarthefish,

    I believe the Chinese characters would be the following:

    一陽不盡人不死﹐一陰不盡不真仙

    Zhen Xian is "real" or "authentic" immortals. Long Men Pai is a rather famous sect of Chuan Zhen Jiao (roughly translated as complete truth religious teachings/school) which IMHO is a cross between philosophical and religious Daosim. The idea of immortal is pretty ancient and unique in Chinese although I believe in some ways it could be compared to the "Sage" in most Hindu tales. To understand this phase, we have to bare in mind a few things IMHO:

    1) We have to understand the Chinese or rather Daoist Pantheon. There are the Gods who were pretty much any force of nature and they were "born" or "created" as supernaturals that hold specific functions (ie rain, thunder, harvest, war, etc). They are governed the same way as the dynastic courts. Gods can be reincarnated as humans and when the human form dies (of a great task or service to the country) the spirit of the God returns to His/Her post in heaven, earth or even hell. Some times their human form (ie Kwan Kung) would be cannonized as Saint by the Emperors, who are considered the Sons of Heaven.

    2) Immortals (Xian) basically has 2 groups. One group is those who were born or created since the dawn of time (ie Tai Shang Lao Jun, Taiyi Zhenren, etc). The other group is those who were born as human but work diligently through the Daoist teachings. Group two is what the phrase is about. In group two, there are also 2 types of immortals. One type is known as Liu Di Xian or Di Xian (earthly immortal). They are pretty much like the Buddhist counter part - Luohan. They retain their human forms and practically live "forever". But it's not the ideal of Daoists in general. The second type is Zhen Xain (real and athentic immortal) which is what the phrase refers. Zhen Xain is Zhun Yang Wu Yin (Pure Yang without Yin) basically non dualistic in nature in layman's term.

    Hope this make sense.

    Warm regards

    Mantis108
    Contraria Sunt Complementa

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    凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
    妙着。


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  4. #49
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    That's the same characters I put up there actually. You just confirmed that it is, in fact, "zhen" xian as opposed to "cheng" xian.

    If that is the case then you'd have to change the translation presented from "a person would not become immortal" as suggested by imperial to "a person is not a real immortal.

    My point about the meaning of the character "jin" remains.

  5. #50
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    Thanks Omarthefish and Mantis108 for your comments. I am refering to the phrase translated by Mantis. I apologise for my sometimes inability to present the phase phoenetically correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by mantis108 View Post

    Zhen Xain is Zhun Yang Wu Yin (Pure Yang without Yin) basically non dualistic in nature in layman's term.
    Yes, that's why a lot of top Daoist/Martial artists goes by the name with the word "Yang" in it: e.g.

    Chong Yang Zhen Ren (Double Yang Real Human/Immortal) who founded Chuen Zhen Pai; and
    Zi Yang Zhen Ren (Purple Yang Real Human/Immortal) who wrote many Daoist text.

    And in many texts I have read about methods to cultivate Zhen Yang... but I cannot recall any that descibes methods to cultivate Zhen Yin? Yet in acupuncture/Chinese medicine we always talk about balancing Yin and Yang?

    In my own quest I seek Zhen Yang for martial arts, while balancing Yin and Yang for health....

    ???

    Cheers,
    John
    Dr. J Fung
    www.kulowingchun.com

    "打得好就詠春,打得唔好就dum春"

  6. #51
    Hi John,

    In the previous system of Hsien Taoism I have mentioned (They don’t actually call it Taoism or Hsien, they consider it a form of MA, but the processes they use are identical to Hsien Taoist practices.) teach that power comes from Yang energy, but to have truly super human abilities including immortality, one must integrate the Yin energy with the Yang energy. The problem they state is that you cannot sense or cultivate Yin energy directly since it is insubstantial. I postulate therefore, that when one stores Yang energy in the tan tien it attracts Yin energy as a natural consequence. They teach in this system that one must learn to sense the Yin energy by sensing its effects on the Yang energy and then integrate the two. I find this interesting however, it seems to me that Yang will always attract Yin and, if allowed to, the two will integrate naturally, of themselves. If we cultivate Yang without allowing Yin to integrate this will cause an imbalance of energies and I cannot see that as being a good thing!

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyMnemonic View Post
    OK. Now that I have determined that YiLiQuan1 is a hopeless case, I can stop wasting time on him and hopefully deal with the rational and curious people.

    The Yin Yang sign is famous in Asian philosophy and martial arts. We have many people here that claim to know lots and lots about martial arts. People who can write 5 inches of sentences per post.

    For me though, these people usually never say anything. They repeat buzzwords and things they read in a book, weave it together with their own style of writing, then behaving as if they have told you something.

    I don't get it. I get lots and lots of words that have no meaning to me because I did not grow up in chinese culture. I don't know what all that stuff means.

    When I ask them to boil it down to english that is understandable, for some reason they cannot. "It is too complicated".

    Baloney. Nothing about kung fu is complicated. Anyone can explain it in plain english to anyone else if they want to. Or if they actually have the knowledge to.

    To prove my point I have a very simple question or challenge. Say something useful and meaningful about the Yin Yang sign. You cannot say "Yin is soft and Yang is hard". A gradeschooler knows that. You must provide some honest kind of insight into what the Yin and Yang sign signifies or teaches or implies.

    Don't be afraid. Put your reputation on the line. I am. You have nothing to lose if you really do know kung fu. You only have something to lose if you have self doubt about your own knowledge.

    Come on. Don't be shy. Let's stop all the name calling and game playing and get down to the interesting stuff. Say something simple but meaningful about the Yin Yang sign in plain english that anyone, even a teenager, can understand.
    lol. It's funny that you post this and then look at some of the replies. They are very complicated and cryptic. No offense to those who wrote that stuff, but the riginal question asked for a simple explanation. I would like to attempt.

    Yin/Yang is symbol made of two significant aspects. It is however only One thing (a symbol, self contained).
    It points to the dual nature of everything and symbolizes that duality that is contained in each of us and in all things. Even in the world around us, day/night, man/woman, left/right, up/down, and so on and so on. It is also representative of other dualistic concepts such as cause and effect, but most of all it is a sign or an indicator of the dualistic nature and quality of all things.

    For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

    was that simple enough?
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  8. #53
    He also said:

    You cannot say "Yin is soft and Yang is hard". A gradeschooler knows that. You must provide some honest kind of insight into what the Yin and Yang sign signifies or teaches or implies.
    So perhaps yours is too simple? and perhaps doesn't provide anything useful to a martial understanding of Yin Yang that a teenager could understand.


    Its tough to judge what people have posted thought because of other Agenda's that seem prevalent and people not attempting to address the question, rather just talking around it.
    Last edited by Anderzander; 08-19-2006 at 06:33 AM.

  9. #54
    Simple answer
    Tai Chi Bob already gave it.
    Change
    It can't get any more simple!

  10. #55
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    Hi Cjurapt,

    Thanks for the website very informative sorry for the late reply!

    That dragon taiji sounds interesting indeed...

    thanks mate!
    Garry

  11. #56
    cjurakpt Guest
    your welcome; glad you enjoyed the website - you might also run across his book in a store every now and then; also, he just premiered a movie in NYC entitled Taiji: Chaotic Harmony - it's being reviewed in an upcoming issue of Asian Journal of MA; Master Hon is an interesting guy - grew up on the streets of NYC C-town, got out, attended Princeton, meandered around, and here he is...

    BTW, a general observation: it is to the credit of this forum and testament to the quality of its membership, that what started out as some sort of semi-troll post has evolved into a very substantial discussion that, aside from one non-sequitor post about cyber bullying (boo hoo), the thread's originator as all but disapeared from (probably he just couldn't keep up...);

  12. #57
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    Our Chi is too pure bro!!!

    Ill look out for his book and movie....

    regards
    Gaz

  13. #58
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    Greetings..

    The general problem is that people project meanings onto the symbol.. rather than let the symbol project the principles outward.. Rather than look for meanings in the symbol, i try to find the principles in whatever situation i am facing, the symbol is a reminder.. If people discect the symbol searching for meaning, it is like chewing on "the finger pointing at the moon"..

    Be well..
    TaiChiBob.. "the teacher that is not also a student is neither"

  14. #59
    meaning of the double fish diagram
    first it is represented by two fish swimming around each other the spot it there eye they tend to look at each other.
    2nd the diagram was taken on by tai chi because it was a nei jia art all nei jia arts relate to the double fish diagram becasue the origanal movement of the art was a patten from that when done properly makes the arms look like a fish if you know how to view it.

    it was a kind of greating. now they have shortened it to the normal hand over fist pattern that you see most places now.

    this was the opening movement because one it showed you knew kung fu and two because someone that didnt know kung fu would not recognize what it was anyway.

    in the particular opening all things had a up down left right closed open state or hence the yin yang of what we know today was displayed.

    the art of tai chi uses it in a different manner in tune with traditional magic of china. all though there are some who still manage to know what there doing and dont put it off as something that is like faith

    faith the substance of things unseen

    thanks

    bugg
    matt bugg

  15. #60
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    Greetings..

    meaning of the double fish diagram
    first it is represented by two fish swimming around each other the spot it there eye they tend to look at each other.
    Do you suppose that the creator(s) relied on their observation of two fish when they created the diagram? or, do you suppose that subsequent observers projected their impressions of fish and movement onto the diagram? Again, i assert that the power of the diagram is its applicability to almost any situation, not in confining it to a particular situation of preference..

    Be well..
    TaiChiBob.. "the teacher that is not also a student is neither"

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