The Yin Yang sign - What do you know about it?

[Scott R. Brown]

Ok I get the hammer example but what about something like the $ sign? Isn't it pretty absolute that there is only one meaning? Or could it be something so simple as to one person it means dollars but to another it just means money......

Hi Ronin22,

“Don't be an A$$!!” I am kidding, but I hope you get my point. The usefulness of anything is only limited by our imagination. I could just as easily have said, “Don’t be an $ss!” In this circumstance I made the “$” equivalent to an “A”. Of course you don’t know that, but symbols have meaning within a personal AND a social context. So let’s say that you and I agree that “$” =”A” When I type to you, “He was an $ss”, it would have a different meaning you than to someone who doesn’t know the meaning of our personal symbol for A$$.

Hi, tattooedmonk,

I disagree with you. What is determined to be the “proper” use of anything is socially determined. What is socially determined varies over time. Yes a hammer is designed for hammering nails, but its usefulness is only limited by ones imagination. It appears you are trying to impose a fixed definition onto a philosophical symbol that is not required by that symbol. It is required by your desire to see a fixed definition used universally. This is the error in your understanding. Your fixed perspective does not allow you to accept any variation of your own personal interpretation. The emphasis here should be on “your own”! You are not the arbiter of any symbols meaning, neither am I or anyone else and neither is tradition. The meaning of symbols changes with the social environment of the time. It is like attempting to fix a thought in time and not allow it to evolve and grow with the needs of individuals and society. The only person this attitude directly affects is your own and you are certainly allowed to limit your understanding and perspective any way you like, but try not to force your self-imposed limitations onto others. It is not fair to them.

[tattooedmonk]

Hi Ronin22,

“Don't be an A$$!!” I am kidding, but I hope you get my point. The usefulness of anything is only limited by our imagination. I could just as easily have said, “Don’t be an $ss!” In this circumstance I made the “$” equivalent to an “A”. Of course you don’t know that, but symbols have meaning within a personal AND a social context. So let’s say that you and I agree that “$” =”A” When I type to you, “He was an $ss”, it would have a different meaning you than to someone who doesn’t know the meaning of our personal symbol for A$$.

Hi, tattooedmonk,

I disagree with you. What is determined to be the “proper” use of anything is socially determined. What is socially determined varies over time. Yes a hammer is designed for hammering nails, but its usefulness is only limited by ones imagination. It appears you are trying to impose a fixed definition onto a philosophical symbol that is not required by that symbol. It is required by your desire to see a fixed definition used universally. This is the error in your understanding. Your fixed perspective does not allow you to accept any variation of your own personal interpretation. The emphasis here should be on “your own”! You are not the arbiter of any symbols meaning, neither am I or anyone else and neither is tradition. The meaning of symbols changes with the social environment of the time. It is like attempting to fix a thought in time and not allow it to evolve and grow with the needs of individuals and society. The only person this attitude directly affects is your own and you are certainly allowed to limit your understanding and perspective any way you like, but try not to force your self-imposed limitations onto others. It is not fair to them.

of course you do!!!

...... and if you read again you will see that I agree with you in this regard I understand that the limits should be boundless!! I stated this already....

I am not tryng to do anything other than inform the misinformed. Everything has an original purpose, intent ,and capacity if they do not continue to live up to that capacity , intent, and purpose the myriad of things that it can do will be limited because it is no longer serving it's original function.

there should be no limit as to the degree in which anything is used....

in this case a symbol( or hammer).

However it misrepresents the meaning behind it and invokes a different type of energy......... this is why Tai Ji is misunderstood.

If you stop using the proper tool for the job and start using something else nothing will ever get done properly or efficiantly you can not use a screw driver to hammer a nail ....

do you understand why it is improper to use this symbol to represent tai ji??

Have you even thought to ask me about why I have the beliefs and feelings I do about it ??
No ......you just want to argue with me...... which is just rediculous .

you obviously do not understand where I am coming from and nor do you want to...

fine...

this still does not take away from the original meaning behind it...

which in this case it is being misused....

I will say this again ....this is a big reason why people do not understand tai ji or the symbolism

and $$ looks like SS ..we do not have to discuss it and agree before hand that it = the same thing.....

with the yinyang as well as your..... A = $ it does...here lies the problem

[unkokusai]

The pretentious parade has begun!!!

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi tattooedmonk,

I apologize if I have misunderstood your meaning. Remember one of the purposes of conversation is to clear up the misunderstandings we each bring to the conversation so that we may share our ideas more completely. If you perceive that I am misunderstanding your points then please feel free to elaborate on them. It should not be necessary for me to ask. Please consider the possibility that I did not understand your meaning because of the manner in which you communicated them. It is also possible my own personal prejudices redefined your meaning according to my preconceived notions. It is just as likely it was a bit of both. I am happy to read and learn from your insights. I hope you would afford me the same consideration.

In fact, I still don’t agree with you. I do not believe the taiji symbol more correctly symbolizes the Taoist second stage of creation. This is because Yin and Yang are not absolute characteristics. Since Yin is also Yang and Yang is also Yin, it is appropriate to include a bit of Yin within Yang, and a bit of Yang within Yin to help illustrate this point. This addition to the symbol illustrates more completely this symbolic manifestation of duality. It is what the perceiver brings to the phenomenon that defines the phenomenon. So for example, let us consider the state of COMPLETE ONENESS, next it is divided into a duality we call Yin and Yang. Now let us consider these two phenomena as consciousnesses. To Yin, Yang is the Other, to Yang, Yin is the Other. To me, I am me; to yourself, you are me. Which one of us is ME, we both are according to our perspective. So Yin and Yang occur according to a context.

I may have three bowls of water. One bowl contains 40*F water, the second bowl contains 60*F water, the third bowl contains 80*F water. The question is, “Is the second bowl warm or cool water?” The answer depends upon the context, how we contrast it. When contrasted with the 40*F bowl is it warm. When contrasted with the 80*F water it is cool. Warm is Yang, cool is Yin. Is the 60*F bowl Yin or Yang? It is both at the same time! It is not perceived as one or the other until we contrast it with something else and how we contrast it determines its classification.

So the small area of Yin within Yang, and the small area of Yang within Yin, more completely illustrates this comprehensive understanding of their true states of being. They help to remind us that Yin may also be considered Yang and that Yang may also be considered Yin according to differing contexts.

[tattooedmonk]

Hi tattooedmonk,

I apologize if I have misunderstood your meaning. Remember one of the purposes of conversation is to clear up the misunderstandings we each bring to the conversation so that we may share our ideas more completely. If you perceive that I am misunderstanding your points then please feel free to elaborate on them. It should not be necessary for me to ask. Please consider the possibility that I did not understand your meaning because of the manner in which you communicated them. It is also possible my own personal prejudices redefined your meaning according to my preconceived notions. It is just as likely it was a bit of both. I am happy to read and learn from your insights. I hope you would afford me the same consideration.

In fact, I still don’t agree with you. I do not believe the taiji symbol more correctly symbolizes the Taoist second stage of creation. This is because Yin and Yang are not absolute characteristics. Since Yin is also Yang and Yang is also Yin, it is appropriate to include a bit of Yin within Yang, and a bit of Yang within Yin to help illustrate this point. This addition to the symbol illustrates more completely this symbolic manifestation of duality. It is what the perceiver brings to the phenomenon that defines the phenomenon. So for example, let us consider the state of COMPLETE ONENESS, next it is divided into a duality we call Yin and Yang. Now let us consider these two phenomena as consciousnesses. To Yin, Yang is the Other, to Yang, Yin is the Other. To me, I am me; to yourself, you are me. Which one of us is ME, we both are according to our perspective. So Yin and Yang occur according to a context.

I may have three bowls of water. One bowl contains 40*F water, the second bowl contains 60*F water, the third bowl contains 80*F water. The question is, “Is the second bowl warm or cool water?” The answer depends upon the context, how we contrast it. When contrasted with the 40*F bowl is it warm. When contrasted with the 80*F water it is cool. Warm is Yang, cool is Yin. Is the 60*F bowl Yin or Yang? It is both at the same time! It is not perceived as one or the other until we contrast it with something else and how we contrast it determines its classification.

So the small area of Yin within Yang, and the small area of Yang within Yin, more completely illustrates this comprehensive understanding of their true states of being. They help to remind us that Yin may also be considered Yang and that Yang may also be considered Yin according to differing contexts.

The symbol for tai ji is a spiral .It represents the energy forces going out and coming in from the big bang. ( centripetal and centrifugal forces)

This is where the duality exists...

The liang yi ( the so called tai ji symbol)represents the 4 phases or si xiang( strong force, weak force, light force, heavy force).

There is a difference.

The separation and division of these two forces( yinyang) into greater and lesser aspects( like the dividing of a cell) 1->2->4->8 and so on...

at the point when the first separation of this unitary force( wu ji) is divided( becomes bi polar ....tai ji) is where yinyang first appear( ultimate yin and ultimate yang)

so you see tai ji and yin yang and si xiang exist within the symbol but does not best represent the action of tai ji from a wuji state into yinyang

I completely understand what you are saying .........nice analogy.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

To illustrate the point i have been trying to make:

The symbol for tai ji is a spiral .It represents the energy forces going out and coming in from the big bang. ( centripetal and centrifugal forces)

The originators of the various symbols associated with Taiji had no concept of the "Big Bang" or the "centripetal and centrifugal forces", although they may have identified sensations associated with such forces.. This is a projection of modern concepts on an ancient symbol, and it's inescapable.. you see, even the explanation of "the origins of Taiji symbology" are dependent on our projections of our understandings.. There is no manual for the interpretation of Taiji symbology, written by, or authorized by the creator(s) of the differing symbols.. it is inappropriate to tell others that their interpretation of ancient symbology is inferior to the interpretation that someone else feels strongly about.. it is a quest to define the indefinable..

While someone's explanation of the intracacies of geometric relationships within the traditional "Yin/Yang" (Taiji) symbol may be an intellectually stimulating exercise, i have strong personal doubts that those relationships were the motivating factors for the symbol's creation.. I am familiar with the "spiral symbol", but.. i find no broad historic use of the symbol relative to Taiji or much use of it at all.. The traditional Yin/Yang symbol can be found throughout Chinese art, writings, and symboloic representations, suggesting a broad application throughout the intellectual spectrum.. a common understanding of basic ideas.. contrary to the western notions of complicating things beyond reason.. simplicity has its merits..

Be well...

[tattooedmonk]

Greetings..

To illustrate the point i have been trying to make:
The originators of the various symbols associated with Taiji had no concept of the "Big Bang" or the "centripetal and centrifugal forces", although they may have identified sensations associated with such forces.. This is a projection of modern concepts on an ancient symbol, and it's inescapable.. you see, even the explanation of "the origins of Taiji symbology" are dependent on our projections of our understandings.. There is no manual for the interpretation of Taiji symbology, written by, or authorized by the creator(s) of the differing symbols.. it is inappropriate to tell others that their interpretation of ancient symbology is inferior to the interpretation that someone else feels strongly about.. it is a quest to define the indefinable..

While someone's explanation of the intracacies of geometric relationships within the traditional "Yin/Yang" (Taiji) symbol may be an intellectually stimulating exercise, i have strong personal doubts that those relationships were the motivating factors for the symbol's creation.. I am familiar with the "spiral symbol", but.. i find no broad historic use of the symbol relative to Taiji or much use of it at all.. The traditional Yin/Yang symbol can be found throughout Chinese art, writings, and symboloic representations, suggesting a broad application throughout the intellectual spectrum.. a common understanding of basic ideas.. contrary to the western notions of complicating things beyond reason.. simplicity has its merits..

Be well...

.....you are intitled.....

your lack of knowledge in this subject regarding the chinese understanding of these concepts does not change the fact that they did.you have indicated that your doubt and question is because of your western mind, being emotional ( personal), and for a lack of knowledge in this area.....

the reason why the liang yi has been used instead of a spiral is because it is easily identifialble..if someone sees a spiral they are not going to understand or identify with it .....

.....like I said Tai Ji and yinyang are in the liang yi but it is not the proper representation or symbol used to identify it...

the buddha once said do not believe something because it is written in a book ,or because everyone believes it, because it is said by everyone, or because it is traditon but only believe it if you find it to be useful and true...

[unkokusai]

.....you are intitled.....

your lack of knowledge in this subject regarding the chinese understanding of these concepts does not change the fact that they did.you have indicated that your doubt and question is because of your western mind, being emotional ( personal), and for a lack of knowledge in this area........

Whoo! Somebody open a window, it's gettin' pretty thick in here!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

the buddha once said do not believe something because it is written in a book ,or because everyone believes it, because it is said by everyone, or because it is traditon but only believe it if you find it to be useful and true...

That has been my point, all along.. the symbol reveals itself as "useful and true" to the observer.. not at the direction of remote authority, or of intellectually contrived descriptions.. that is its beauty, it is self-evident..

Be well..

[Scott R. Brown]

That has been my point, all along.. the symbol reveals itself as "useful and true" to the observer.. not at the direction of remote authority, or of intellectually contrived descriptions.. that is its beauty, it is self-evident..

Well said Bob! Wish I had said that too!

[tattooedmonk]

Greetings..

That has been my point, all along.. the symbol reveals itself as "useful and true" to the observer.. not at the direction of remote authority, or of intellectually contrived descriptions.. that is its beauty, it is self-evident..

Be well..

...that you have missed what is being said.

I believe that I have made myself more than clear.....I am not going to continue to argue about this after this post .....

viewing this symbol you can see the advanced stage of yinyang( si xiang or four phases) not tai ji........tai ji is what gets it to this stage........

this is not the beginning stage( transition from wu ji ) which is tai ji to yin yang...

which is my point .....using this symbol makes it confusing to the observer by complicating it...

you said it yourself .......simplicity has it's merits.

it has been real and it has been fun ...but it has not been really fun!!!

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi tattooedmonk,

Please consider this....it is something I have learned on these BB.

Confusion often arises when we THINK we are being clear with our meaning when we aren't. What we write makes sense to us because we know what we are intending to say, but others do not necessarily understand what we mean. It is not always the audiences fault for not understanding us. This is because there are times we assume we have said things we haven't. Since we know what we are saying it makes sense to us. Our minds tend to fill in the missing information we are implying that we have not actually stated in the post. To us the missing information is obvious and we may not understand why others cannot see it too. This is because we KNOW what we are saying, others do not!

Look for patterns. You have now accused both TCB and I of not understanding what you think you have clearly posted. This is the beginning of a pattern that may indicate that you are not being as clear with your meaning as you think you are.

When we speak we have the benefit of inflection and other forms and manners of speech to add meaning to what we speak. This is missing when we write, but we do not consider this aspect of communication is important to transmit meaning.

Implications do not always translate well on paper. When writing it is always better to be more direct or precise than to imply your meaning. If you agree with someone say it directly and then if you wish to explain why list the reasons you agree. If you disagree say it plainly and then list the specific reasons if you choose. This is clear and direct.

To be honest some of your posts do not make a lot of sense to me. They are not as clear as you intend or think they are. Learning to be clear when writing takes time and I am not claiming expertise in this for myself My posts as you may have noted tend towards long and drawn out explanations. At times I do wonder how anyone understands anything I write, LOL!!

So if you are not being understood, please try not to assume the problem lies solely with your audience. Be patient and perhaps try saying the same thing in another way.

Good Luck!

[tattooedmonk]

Hi tattooedmonk,

Please consider this....it is something I have learned on these BB.

Confusion often arises when we THINK we are being clear with our meaning when we aren't. What we write makes sense to us because we know what we are intending to say, but others do not necessarily understand what we mean. It is not always the audiences fault for not understanding us. This is because there are times we assume we have said things we haven't. Since we know what we are saying it makes sense to us. Our minds tend to fill in the missing information we are implying that we have not actually stated in the post. To us the missing information is obvious and we may not understand why others cannot see it too. This is because we KNOW what we are saying, others do not!

Look for patterns. You have now accused both TCB and I of not understanding what you think you have clearly posted. This is the beginning of a pattern that may indicate that you are not being as clear with your meaning as you think you are.

When we speak we have the benefit of inflection and other forms and manners of speech to add meaning to what we speak. This is missing when we write, but we do not consider this aspect of communication is important to transmit meaning.

Implications do not always translate well on paper. When writing it is always better to be more direct or precise than to imply your meaning. If you agree with someone say it directly and then if you wish to explain why list the reasons you agree. If you disagree say it plainly and then list the specific reasons if you choose. This is clear and direct.

To be honest some of your posts do not make a lot of sense to me. They are not as clear as you intend or think they are. Learning to be clear when writing takes time and I am not claiming expertise in this for myself My posts as you may have noted tend towards long and drawn out explanations. At times I do wonder how anyone understands anything I write, LOL!!

So if you are not being understood, please try not to assume the problem lies solely with your audience. Be patient and perhaps try saying the same thing in another way.

Good Luck!

....would it not be easier to ask me what I mean rather than go on and on about it and not getting anywhere??

I would be more than happy to explain anything I have stated.

I understand where I have made mistakes in this thread and in my posts.

I believed that there was a better understanding of Taoism,Yin Yang Theory , Tai Ji Quan, etc. here ........for this I apologize.

Thank you for your understanding.

[Scott R. Brown]

....would it not be easier to ask me what I mean rather than go on and on about it and not getting anywhere??

Hi tattooedmonk,

The problem with this view is that it assumes that others KNOW they don't understand you. That is the point! You assume the audience should be asking you because YOU believe others don't understand. Others may not perceive they don't understand your points until you tell them they are misunderstanding.

I read your posts and try to make sense believing I have understood. It is unproductive to reply by merely stating, "You are misunderstanding! Why don't you ask me what I mean?" Just tell me where I have misunderstood and attempt to restate your thoughts with more clarity. It is that simple!

It becomes your responsibility to clear the confusion once you realize it has occured because the thoughts that are misunderstood are yours to begin with. It is unproductive to bait the audience into asking you to clear up the confusion. They are your thoughts, it is up to you to express them in an understandable manner. You are the one to identify whether your points are being understood by assessing the feedback of the replying posts.

Misunderstanding is not necessarily due to the audience, it could just as well your inadequate presentation of the thoughts in the first place. In either case, whether it is the audience projecting their own predjudices, or your lack of clarity it is still up to elaborate your thoughts if you peceive a misunderstanding is occuring, NOT the audience to ask you too. I accept if the audience knows they don't understand they have a responsibility to ask, but to think something is unclear and then respond according to what one believes the meaning was is not inappropriate.

Presumably it is your desire to be understood. Take responsibility and volunteer the information in order to make your thoughts more understandable.

You point of view is interesting, but we are not a rapt audience waiting to be enlightened by anyone else. We are a group of people who gather to share our thoughts. Each of us has equal responsibility to make our thoughts understood if we perceive they are misunderstood by others.

[unkokusai]

....

I understand where I have made mistakes in this thread and in my posts.

I believed that there was a better understanding of Taoism,Yin Yang Theory , Tai Ji Quan, etc. here ........for this I apologize.

Thank you for your understanding.

Oh, he just keeps gettin' better and better! What a show!