Where would you stick the Pole?

[omarthefish]

Well how would you relate it to the WC pole then.

I did some googling to see what you meant. It was a little tricky to get past the fish since that is apparently the most googled meaning of the word "pike".

So you mean the super-ultra long spears. No hook. Fine. Those are the ones used either in phalanx style from behind shields. That's why they are so long. You can stand behind the shield guys and together, the pikeman and the shield people make a big bristly porcupine thing that moves forward. Horseman who would attempt to charge the ranks would get their horses impaled. The pikes would still have to be braced on the ground for this to work.

So in keeping with your definition of the weapon, what paralells can you draw between any of the WC pole work and the pike. Is there any technique or training method at all which you can point to that is common to both weapons?

I was thinking something like this:

http://therionarms.com/armor/polearm2.jpg

I can see now you meant more something like this:

http://www.imperialweapons.com/polearms/13pike.html

[tjwingchun]

Well I have been away for a while and I think it is about time I came back into this thread as I started it!

My referencing to the English pikestaff was simply that in my mind that as a function in a battle (technical overlap/parallel), they were both used to counter people on horseback, the time of the English pikestaff the knights wore heavier armour and the war horse was a specifically bred for the purpose and much heavier, so the development of the pikestaff over the years became more specific to its particular task.

Horse & Horse Armor. A horse was the knight's most important purchase - costing as much as an entire year's income. The medieval warhorse was called a destrier (based on the Latin word dexter for "right-hand side") and needed to be able to carry not only the knight with his roughly 60 lbs. of armor, but that of his own, as well. The most prized destriers came from France, Italy and Spain. Horses frequently also wore trappers, decorated cloth coverings, that displayed the knight's coat of arms. The armor was designed to protect the horse's rear side, as well as his neck, back and face. When rearing up, well-trained warhorses could also use their iron horseshoes to attack any foot soldier underneath.

from http://www.pbs.org/wnet/warriorchall...s_profile.html

Whereas those popular in the region were most likely to be of Mongol origin.

Genghis Khan. Mongol horses were small, but their riders were lightly clad and they moved with greater speed.

from http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/h11mon.htm

My point was not that there was any influence at all just a re-inforcement of my 'theory' of countering riders, as with many instances worldwide, when like minded people consider the same questions they come up with similar solutions.

Considering that Wing Chun was developed around the time of the beginning of the Ch'ing Dynasty (1644 AD) we have to take into account the nature of personal safety, lawlessness and many other aspects that make up the character of the time. Much in the same way that in England there were the highwaymen that made it an unsafe place to travel between towns.

http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK...Highwaymen.htm

It does not take too much of a leap of thought that a traveller might prepare themselves with weapons that would allow them to defend against an attack that would not just be a 'civilised' mugging, and that a practical system such as Wing Chun being a product of that time might have in place methods relating to this scenario.

If faced with a mounted assailant I can imagine with ease using the tip of the pole to knock a lance or weapon to one side and dropping into the low horse stance driving my momentum and energy into the point, with both my arms in rigid positions holding the pole to receive the forthcoming collision, then either fending off the continued momentum of the attacker or releasing the pole to continue the attack with the swords.

All supposition, yes, the product of my imagination, yes, can I prove anything, no, am I bothered, no.

I use the visualisation of an application to get a student to 'feel' how the pole could be used in reality, the strength of the structure, the focus of energy from back leg to pole tip. Hence my focus on the horseback scenario rather than the 'pole verus pole', and I repeat that in a pole contest I would be more intersted in just getting past the tip of the pole and dealing with the user, not 'duelling' to test their pole skills.

By keeping the usage simple it allows a student to appreciate what they are doing and trying to achieve, how their bodies are reacting in the collision and letting the pole remain a fundemental training tool in the Wing Chun system. Rather than a cumbersome, antiquated dust gathering weapon stood in the corner of the room.

Realistically there is no point in discussing the merits or functionality of ancient weapons, these days pump action shotguns, AK47's and Uzi's are more traditional weapons of conflict, but in the UK they tend to be frowned upon when carried in public.

What we can learn from practicing with weapons such as the pole are the abstract usage of energies and the analytical skills required to understand their intricacies, more theoretical than practical but never the less important developmental processes.

[CFT]

I just can't see an 8-9' pole as a convenient self defence weapon, in terms of transporting it around.

Now a 6' pole/staff can be used as a walking aid, carrying goods to market (basket on one end or both), etc. It is altogether a more manageable object.

I think that using the long Wing Chun pole to unseat a charging rider does not chime with Wing Chun pole practice. There is still considerable momentum to deal with - if one does not ground the pole, like a pike, then the pole would just shoot out of your hands.

OK, speculation on my part. But here is an experiment that might simulate conditions, though it might not match the real forces. Take a heavy swinging punchbag and try and stop it with a pole thrust. Can you still keep hold of the pole?

[anerlich]

I just can't see an 8-9' pole as a convenient self defence weapon, in terms of transporting it around.

But what if you're attacked by a horse-riding assailant? This is as real a possibility for you as it is for me, no doubt. Does the inconvenience outweigh the potential risk of doing otherwise?

Perhaps the pole needs to be updated so that it can be used against assailants driving Humvees and Mack trucks. You gotta move with the times.

these days pump action shotguns, AK47's and Uzi's are more traditional weapons of conflict, but in the UK they tend to be frowned upon when carried in public

I reckon you'd get a fair bit of stick (no pun intended) if you tried to board the Tube at rush hour carrying a 9' pole as well.

[Edmund]

So in keeping with your definition of the weapon, what paralells can you draw between any of the WC pole work and the pike. Is there any technique or training method at all which you can point to that is common to both weapons?

I was thinking something like this:

http://therionarms.com/armor/polearm2.jpg

I can see now you meant more something like this:

http://www.imperialweapons.com/polearms/13pike.html

Essentially that length but perhaps a bit thicker and heavier.

So the basic training exercises for troops would be along the lines of getting them to hold their heavy long pike horizontal, taking their grip at the end, getting into their horse stance, moving the thing around etc.

If you know the pole form, you would see how it would translate to a military style of training of the pike. It's very simple with only 7 moves and not much foot movement or changing directions. Nowdays a lot of people do the form with a smaller pole because it's more practical. There's no set length but I believe it used to be fairly long and heavy.

[tjwingchun]

I just can't see an 8-9' pole as a convenient self defence weapon, in terms of transporting it around.

If you had a local problem with thieving/murdering horesmen, you may consider it worth the inconvenience, alternatively if you are travelling through a wooded area and you had notice of the attack then trimming a young tree down with your swords would only take a few minutes, would not need a lathe as it would already have natural narrowing to the tip. (What an imagination eh? I think I should get out more )

Now a 6' pole/staff can be used as a walking aid, carrying goods to market (basket on one end or both), etc. It is altogether a more manageable object.

I cannot argue with that, when I first started we used to practice a 6' pole and carrying it around on public transport to get to classes it was not easy but manageable, but 9' 6" would be a nightmare, but when needs must!

I think that using the long Wing Chun pole to unseat a charging rider does not chime with Wing Chun pole practice. There is still considerable momentum to deal with - if one does not ground the pole, like a pike, then the pole would just shoot out of your hands.

How would you use the Wing Chun pole given its length and weight? and what bells do you practice with. I am definitely interested how you envisage using such a cumbersome weapon against an aggressive attacker, the leverage sideways is weak so the main threat must be the driving thrust of the tip.

If you are holding the pole correctly, front arm straight and braced, rear arm holding the pole at the end and held tight against the armpit of the front arm, with the elbow kept tight into the chest forming the strongest structure across the shoulders then with the low horse stance when you apply your energies into the pole, the reactant energy of the collision should be 'grounded' through your stance.

OK, speculation on my part. But here is an experiment that might simulate conditions, though it might not match the real forces. Take a heavy swinging punchbag and try and stop it with a pole thrust. Can you still keep hold of the pole?

I practice into my dummy to learn about the reactant energies through the pole and where the energies throughout my body need to be co-ordinated to reinforce the structure to survive the collision.

Again I will reiterate, this is just my personal theory after thinking about the pole for many years, I am not saying it is historically correct only that if I was around at the time it is how I can envisage using the pole, faced with another pole carrier, my instinct would be to throw the pole at them to distract them, get past the tip and beat merry hell out of them, either that or use my swords to put them through a weight loss program.

Why use the pole if you have the swords? What is the scenario which make the pole obviously useful? What are the energies created in the pole form, their strength and direction? Where are there weapons of similar ilk and what are their uses? Does the pole have a realistic function in todays Wing Chun?

All those questions that came to my mind, when I teach any aspect of Wing Chun I feel that I must be able to argue logically why the techniques and methods that I put forward to students are there, using simple commonsense reasoning that anyone can understand and not merely because Sifu said Sigung said Grandmaster Yip Man said so.

If I cannot back up what I say with sound concept and principle, then I need to look deeper and search longer until the simplicity shines through and it becomes obvious.

ps. anerlich I believe the police use shotguns with solid cartridges to stop large vehicles by blasting the engine, but I agree with your sentiment of moving with the times which is why my main reasoning as to the function of the pole today is more conceptual rather than functional.

[CFT]

tj,

I probably wasn't clear enough. What I'm saying is that I'm not sure a person using a Wing Chun pole to unseat a rider on a horse can brace themselves enough to still keep hold/control the pole after impact. I admit it is conjecture on my part. I don't have any doubts that the pole can be used against another person moving around on the ground. A charging horse is a fearsome beast, alot of energy and momentum to deal with.

I think pole practice should still be part of modern Wing Chun practice, if not for the actual weapon use then for developmental purposes. I also think that the pole practice should carry over into other long weapons - but not in the sense that you can just pick up any random long weapon and use it ad hoc. The other weapons have to be trained too, but the benefits of the Wing Chun long pole practice should carry through.

[tjwingchun]

tj,
A charging horse is a fearsome beast, alot of energy and momentum to deal with.

I understand your misgivings but the mongol horses are not that big, and as they did not to use much in the way of saddles to hold them on the horses back, the momentum would not have been much more than a person sprinting at you.

http://www.e-mongol.com/mongolia_videos.htm

As opposed to the Shire horse which is more like that used by the knights of old, a truly magnificent animal and with all the armour of both knight and horse, the combined mass would create a significant increase in momentum.

http://www.horseweb.com/client/jv/jv_theshirehorse.htm

However my question still is "How do you envisage using the Wing Chun pole in a real combat scenario?"

[Samurai Jack]

AmanuJRY, good points. As for the jo sparring, we did it in my aikido school about once a month. I can't really comment on how common it is as I haven't been to a representative enough sample of schools, but I have met other aikidoka who do it to some degree and some jojutsuka who did it a lot.

I can vouch for that. We do it twice a week or more. I train some weapon every day for at least an hour. I'm nursing a goose egg over my right eye, and a nasty swollen right thumb from today's Jo class.

[Kapten Klutz]

if you are travelling through a wooded area and you had notice of the attack then trimming a young tree down with your swords would only take a few minutes, would not need a lathe as it would already have natural narrowing to the tip.

I really like the way you're thinking here. Lot's of interesting and informative ideas have come out of this thread, thanks.

At the same time, I don't see why this anti-horseman theory has to rule out the idea of also using the poles on red-junks to fend off unwanted visitors coming over the gangplank or approaching on boats. And I don't see how any of this rules out the idea that the movements are related to spear training. It all seems plausible; the answer could very well be: yes you're all right, and I don't think we'll ever know for sure what actually came first.

[SevenStar]

Jujitsu has been traced back to China some 2500 years ago. Called by another name I am sure, but most of the arts today originate from this single parent art. In fact, most of the forms we see today are 50 years old or less. Like Judo and Aikido, and even Tai Kwan Do.

you should probably clarify that to say most of the eastern arts. However, even among those, JJJ cannot be verifiably traced back to china. the history of jjj is unclear. Some accounts say it hit japan when a chinese kempo master showed three different chin na techniques to 3 different japanese physicians. Some say it was completely a japanese development - there is no conclusive evidence of either, or of any of the other stories.

Judo is more than 50 years old.

aikido is more than 50 years old.

[SevenStar]

Have you ever studied Japanese Jujitsu? I have and I have to say that there are a great many differences in it and the Brazillian Jujitsu.

1. there were at one point in history over 700 ryu of jjj - the fact that the one you studied does little groundwork means nothing.

2. there were several ryu that focused on groundwork, one of which kano trained in and was part of his formulation of judo.

3. bjj actually came from judo, not jjj.

[The Xia]

Mitsuyo Maeda, the teacher of Helio Gracie, learned his Judo during the "Newaza Revolution" when Fusen Ryu Jujutsu (A style with a lot of ground fighting) sensei taught at the Kodokan.

[tjwingchun]

I really like the way you're thinking here. Lot's of interesting and informative ideas have come out of this thread, thanks.

At the same time, I don't see why this anti-horseman theory has to rule out the idea of also using the poles on red-junks to fend off unwanted visitors coming over the gangplank or approaching on boats. And I don't see how any of this rules out the idea that the movements are related to spear training. It all seems plausible; the answer could very well be: yes you're all right, and I don't think we'll ever know for sure what actually came first.

Can't argue about the Red Junk idea either, the defence against cavalry/riders came from looking at other similar weapons throughout the world and was just the way that my mind works as I use references outside Wing Chun looking for similarities to re-inforce MY understanding of MY Wing Chun.

As you say it is history and my view of Wing Chun is more focused toward the future. Another uncertainty,

[junmo]

In my original line of WC i was taught that the pole combined a combination of "spear" and regular "staff" techniques. This designated it as a "Generals" weapon as regualr footsoldiers would not get the more advanced techniques. We utilised the "butt" end as a striking tool

We trained with 2 sizes of pole - we drilled a long heavy pole for learning conditioning and stance training.

We used a shorter lighter pole for techique training and dynamic pole on pole interaction. We also used this interaction using the knives against multiple pole attacks from the WC bagua circle (no, not that Bagua). My Sifus pole drills exposed me to take downs with the pole, spearing, crushing and a real eye opener was the application of the pole in an empty hand format (kum na, take downs and strikes)

The pole became part of our training from about 3 months of starting Wing Chun , and in MY experience i would'nt have it any other way. By starting us on the foundations of the pole at such an early stage (in comparision to other styles of WC - not a diss, just my observation) I learnt how to "earth" myself and sink my stance solidly. the rest we all know, body unity, power focus, etc.

Probably the most important aspect taught me was how to move. interaction against a knive opponent gave me "live" footwork and angling, and trained my hands to "go together".

Regardless whether you think it is outdated or not, the pole is more essential to the system than a lot of people give it credit for. Personally i have trained with some senoir practioners who could definitley use the pole techniques in active combat.

I'm training with a differnt lineage in Shanghai (starting sort of from scratch but not really ), so I'm not learning their pole form yet, BUT i still drill my original form and techniques in my own time.