aye, here there be Dragons...

[Faruq]

True dat! (Though powerful meds to train would help a little IMHO)

[diego]

http://www.daylife.com/photo/0fr4duk76DfrN

Is it possible some emperor had some fossils and that's where the legends came from?

Lil lizard looks like a dragon minus the tail...

http://www.chinapage.com/djar.gif

http://www.chinapage.com/rdragon.gif

A portrait of Emperor Tai-Tsung, Tang Dynasty (626-649). Both the dragon motif and the yellow color are restricted to the royalty only. (37k)

http://www.chinapage.com/images/dragoncoiled.jpg

Jade Coiled Dragon
Jade coiled dragon, Hongshan Culture (c. 4700-2920 B.C.)
Liaoning Provincial Institute of Archaeology, Shenyang

Thing looks creepy^

Dragons in Ancient Realms
Recently, a very good history question has been brought to my wizardly attention. A young man named Chris wanted to know when Dragons become part of the Chinese culture. It's a very good question, and one not answered easily. We all know what a dragon is, or at least have some idea of it. But where did dragons come from? When did they become part of our world? When are they first noted in History? To this end, I did some research and here's what I found:

First Dragons in Europe?
Not by a long shot. The best we could dig up there is a couple thousand years at best.

During the European time referred to as the Middle Ages (about 400 AD), Dragons were evil, sinister creatures who hoarded gold and feasted on virgins. They set villages alight, ate farm animals and when not terrorising villages, they slept atop their treasure heaps in caves high in mountainsides. That's the European dragon in a nutshell...

Seeing as China's history is much longer and better documented than that of its European counterparts, that's where I went next.

First Dragons in China?
As you probably know, China's histories are separated into dynasties, the
earliest being the Xia dynasty ca. 2000-1500 B.C. This dynasty is the
earliest of China's dynasties and for all practical uses it is considered prehistoric.

I found out that Xia social organization was based on the clan. But apparently even back then, the dragon motif is common at Xia sites. The major clan totem of the Xia was (you guessed it) the dragon.

First Dragons in Sumeria?
Ok, from Chinese culture, we can tell that dragons are old, but we already knew that. So now we go to Sumeria, perhaps the pre-Egyptians can help us on our task.

Here we find the ancient tale of Zu and Enlil. This story dates all the way back to 5000 BC. And here it is in condensed form.

Zu was a clever and sneaky dragon that stole the Tablets of Law from the god Enlil, who was once the river god but now also the god of dry land. Enlil wore these tablets on him, and they held the universal laws upon them. Ninurta, the sun god, was sent after Zu. For the most part, he completed the task, and managed to slay him.

Hrm � 5000 B.C. wow, but we're not done yet.

First Dragons in Australia?
Believe it or not, it seems that Dragons make their first real appearance in Australia. The Australian Aboriginal Dragons were beneficial and revered creatures; the Rainbow Serpent was the Aboriginals 'main' Dragon, and was involved with the creation of the landscape and man in the Dreamtime. The legend of the Rainbow Serpent first came to surface at around 40 000 BC, although estimates range from 65 000 BC - 35 000 BC.

Let me repeat that, 40,000 BC Now we're getting to the good stuff.


In Conclusion
So I guess what I've found so far is that from the looks of the histories, the
dragon has been a part of our culture just about as long as, well, just about as long as WE have!

[Lucas]

that thing about the aboriginals is a trip. my only question is how did the australian aboriginals provide this 40,000 year old documentation to show that their beliefs in dragons held that far back?

[diego]

that thing about the aboriginals is a trip. my only question is how did the australian aboriginals provide this 40,000 year old documentation to show that their beliefs in dragons held that far back?

right, it's google too so I'm sure buddy got his **** from a public library in some fantasy book...

Gene Ching should get some of his overseas advisers to maybe fill in some dates!.

[uki]

just like bears go into hibernation for a several months in the winter, so do dragons go into hibernation for several ages... it takes the planet roughly 2,160 years to cross one zodiac house(and age), each house corresponds to being one galactic month(if we shall call it that). we are entering the first month of galactic spring(think global warming people, not just here, but every planet in the solar system is changing)... i'd expect something's to be coming out of their celestial hibernation soon.

[David Jamieson]

Chinese Dragons don't have wings and don't typically breath fire. They are more often associated with water or natural elements.

It's possible that any number of ancient men found some remnant of a sauran and attributed it with some power and then promptly included it into the local mythos.

But because most history is a blathering on about an event followed by why some individual is so great, as opposed to an actual timeline of events as they happened.

Much of the knowledge of ancient peoples fortunately is not drawn from written history and instead is drawn from archaeological finds and deduction based on the finds.

[SPJ]

I can only comment from legends and not from science with evidences etc.

1. for every lake, there is a dragon living in it. the deeper the lake, the stronger the dragon.

2. for every ocean/sea, there is a bigger and stronger dragon. just like tiger and lion rule the forest or jungle, the dragon rules the sea.

3. yes, they ride on water, so when there are a lot of clouds and mist/fog, sometime you see the dragon rising and swimming up to the sky by riding on the moistures.

yes, they are related to water and not so much with fire.

[diego]

So I imagine when the Jews came up with the serpent and the tree in the garden story a bunch of old guys sat at the park watching squirrels while feeding the birds and they put the legend together...When was the first dinosaur bone discovered? Egyptians must have had some sort of skeletons.

The Dragon is in most cultures, it only makes sense that kings created stories based on fossils.

It's one thing to fear reptiles like any monkey does and make tales to teach children, to make such grand tales of the magic dragon it must have come from all the tainted mushrooms the ancients did while looking at dinosaur bone which would have made them create a King Arthur sword in the stone fantasy view of reality inspired by not being able to separate now from dreaming...

[ghostexorcist]

When was the first dinosaur bone discovered? Egyptians must have had some sort of skeletons.

On "History's Mysteries" they had an episode about how the early discovery of dinosaur bones probably influenced Roman mythology. For instance, if the tusks were missing from a Mammoth skeleton, people might think it to be the remains of a titan since the similarities with human structure is striking. One scholar speculated the boney monster attacking a woman on a Roman vase was actually a dinosaur skull protruding from the side of a cliff. Another interesting point was made that the Griffin might have been influenced by dinosaur bones as well. The Griffin was, of course, the chimera beast with the head of an eagle and the body of a lion. It was known for laying its eggs in treasure and guarding its nest virulently. Well, a Protoceratops (triceratops without the horns) could easily be mistaken for a large bird because of its sharp beak and, if the skull plates were somehow moved back around the shoulder blades (for whatever reason), it would give the illusion of wings. Protoceratops were commonly found in areas of Central Asia known for its gold. This article briefly talks about the griffin thing:

http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF12/1217.html

I wouldn't doubt if the discovery of dinosaur bones influenced the legend of dragons worldwide.

[uki]

On "History's Mysteries" they had an episode about how the early discovery of dinosaur bones probably influenced Roman mythology. For instance, if the tusks were missing from a Mammoth skeleton, people might think it to be the remains of a titan since the similarities with human structure is striking. One scholar speculated the boney monster attacking a woman on a Roman vase was actually a dinosaur skull protruding from the side of a cliff. Another interesting point was made that the Griffin might have been influenced by dinosaur bones as well. The Griffin was, of course, the chimera beast with the head of an eagle and the body of a lion. It was known for laying its eggs in treasure and guarding its nest virulently. Well, a Protoceratops (triceratops without the horns) could easily be mistaken for a large bird because of its sharp beak and, if the skull plates were somehow moved back around the shoulder blades (for whatever reason), it would give the illusion of wings. Protoceratops were commonly found in areas of Central Asia known for its gold. This article briefly talks about the griffin thing:

http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF12/1217.html


I wouldn't doubt if the discovery of dinosaur bones influenced the legend of dragons worldwide

you DO realize that most everything on the television is to keep people ignorant of the truth don't you? now of course the predictible retort will be said of information on the internet, but unlike the media television, the information is not owned by a small handful of people... one has the choice to research further... believing what you see on the tv screen is nothing short of being hoodwinked utterly and completely.
.

[mickey]

Greetings,

For a healthy look at dragon/naga presence in world culture, check out Mark Amaru Pinkham's: "Return of the Serpents of Wisdom". It is good metaphysical/cross cultural reading. I highly recommend it.

mickey

[Shaolinlueb]

http://www.oneinchpunch.net/2007/06/...play-in-china/

you mean that?

[TenTigers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itoxanJ4MW8

[ghostexorcist]

you DO realize that most everything on the television is to keep people ignorant of the truth don't you? now of course the predictible retort will be said of information on the internet, but unlike the media television, the information is not owned by a small handful of people... one has the choice to research further... believing what you see on the tv screen is nothing short of being hoodwinked utterly and completely.
.

You must be a conspiracy theorist.

[diego]

http://www.oneinchpunch.net/2007/06/...play-in-china/

you mean that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzwGwsdaeQo