The I Ching??

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Guys,

How many of you use the I Ching at all or if any in day to day living?

If so what has it given you and what ways have you used it for?

regards
Garry

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I have tried different ways of using the I Ching and found that reading it as a guide to human nature works best for me.. rather than looking for answers or direction on specific issues, i find that by reading it as a guide gives me an advantage to discerning likely outcomes of dynamic situations.. it eliminates the need to revisit the text each time i have a question or to go through the ritual of casting coins or stalks.. I have found it useful to read various translations/interpretations.. Cleary's Taoist version, though a bit harsh, seems very astute in its comprehension of human nature..

The I Ching is really a systemized guide to human nature in differing situations.. a study of the text from that perspective can internalize a database that is useful in the present moment, not as an independent action of ritual or divination.. or so it seems to me..

Be well..

[mantis108]

Well, just like there are 2 fields of physics - theoretical physics and applied physics, the Yijing (classic of change) can IMHO be viewed as theoretical Yijing and applied Yijing.

Theoretical Yijing is the study of the history, evolution, theory, formulation, anthropology, etc... of the body of knowledge that is collectively under the classic of change.

Applied Yijing is divination, meditation, medicine, military science, Kung Fu, etc... the actual application of the theories.

It's a matter (pun intended) of astronomer and astronaut. Are you going to stay on earth and look at the wonders of universe or are you going to put on the suit and touch the face of the universal wonders?

It would be ideal to do both but it's much easier IMHO to start with the Applied Yijing field. So...

Mantis108

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for your replies, did you learn the full 64 hexagram meanings and what not or just roll the coins and sticks and just got your readings from the book?

Garry

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Gary: I have studied the diagrams relative to their literal meanings (translations).. and tried to intuit the relationships, like mountain over lake, etc... the ancient commentaries and interpretations are really very good and, as i said previously, is a great study of human nature in situational perspectives.. i have had some insightful readings based on casting coins and stalks.. but, after a time studying the various translations, i find that it is easier to relax into a question and let the appropriate meanings reveal themselves.. i find that this is remarkably reliable. the wisdom of the texts seems to emerge as needed without the ritual.. the caution is that i (others, i assume, too) need to suspend rational thought for the appropriate wisdom to reveal itself.. otherwise we risk prejudice and preference interfering with the process..

In the process of intuiting meaning from the hexagrams i find that cultural differences have a significant impact on my personal interpretation compared to Chinese commentary.. with that notion i wonder if the matrix of hexagrams is so wisely conceived as to render this difference of interpretation appropriate. The differences of interpretation seem to add depth and dimension to the application of the wisdoms revealed, they are easily discerned as relevant to the situation under consideration.. I don't know if this is relevant to your question but i hope it helps in some way..

Be well..

[mantis108]

There are many different methods in learning and studying the Yijing. It would be upto the teacher (if you are lucky to find one) to teach his tradition to you. These days you can mostly find teachers that are pretty much fortune teller type, which is more "commercial" oriented. I am not aganist commerical use of divination per se as I believe that truth is truth and it should apply even if we are "taking a dunk". But it's somewhat abusing the intent, purpose and power of the classic of change IMHO.

When I first learn the Yijing (self study mainly), I learn the hard way by reading old books about divination with the use of Yijing. It's really IMHO not a very good way to study such a great classic. As the years go by, I gradually come to an understanding that there are actually real scholars out there that study the classic of change. By reading their books and articles I gain a little better handle on what's really going on with the study. I have to say I walked a much much longer path than I have to due to common misconceptions and a "rogue" perspective of Yi (from reputable Confucian scholars no less!) .

Realistically, there are 2 main traditions of scholars - Confucian and Daoist. Confucian tradition again breaks into 2 main camps. One is Xiang Shu (phenomena & mathematics), a relatively "scientific" school of thoughts which interestingly in some ways similar to the views of Daoism. The other is Li (reasoning) school which is also quite fundamental Confucian, which is where the rogue perspective came from IMHO. Daoist tradition is more concern with the application of Yi. It is also more mystical in nature.

Either way, learning how to draw the diagrams of Yi first is important. Learn the 8 trigrams, the 64 hexagrams and their meanings is just a very small part of the study. Then you will have to learn the order of the hexagrams as found in the present day version of Yijing that is known as Zhou Yi (the change of Zhou dynasty). BTW, there are other older versions of Yi that predates Zhou Yi. So the study of these can be a lifetime pursuit. If you are going to learn divination using the Yijing, there are many methods available. Using the Yallow sticks is more "authentic" and time consuming but it's a preferred method of mine. The coin method is a lot eaiser (excellent for commercial use); however, it's a lot less "kosher". So...

Just some thoughts to share.

Mantis108

[fiercest tiger]

Mantis 108, Taiji Bob,

Thanks guys i really appreciate your knowledge that you give to the forum and myself i enjoy reading all your post ( a few times over and over)!!!

Did you know taht there is a Buddhist Yi Ching too?

I have 3 books on I Ching as well some i downloaded which was buddhist, i used the coins and the sticks. But i want to get back into it properly and really try and learn it, like you said its very hard to find a teacher and myself has been mostly self study!

Hmm i will have to read it all a few times and get an idea on how to start out!

regards
Gaz

[cjurakpt]

Hey FT

On my teacher's website (www.dantao.com) there is some ersonal meanderings of his on I Jing - he actually studied it rather extensively with a prof at Princeton who was an I Jing scholar, and applies it frequently in many ways: unfortunately, he doesn't talk too much about it publically, at least not up until recently, when taught a seminar series on opening the Microcosmic Orbit in context of I Jing (specifically the first two hexagrams) - up to now, he has taught it in depth to only one person so far, but I've been pestering him for years, and I may be kinda the next in line, hopefully...

one thing he likes to talk about is how the book describes the progression of human consciousness, both on an individual level as well as a societal one - at least in terms of the typical "order" - he also states that there are other ways to order the hexagrams...

anyway, it's something I am looking forward to getting into...

[mantis108]

Mantis 108, Taiji Bob,

Thanks guys i really appreciate your knowledge that you give to the forum and myself i enjoy reading all your post ( a few times over and over)!!!

You are most welcome, my friend. I am glad that you enjoy our posts. It's great to be able to get discussion going with open minded people.

Did you know taht there is a Buddhist Yi Ching too?

Personally, I wouldn't think Buddhism and Yijing are totally compatible although there are people who tend to blur the line when it comes to reasoning while applying the descipline of philosophy onto interpreting the Yijing text. It is extremely important that we don't justify the means with the end. So there is no such a thing as Buddhist Yijing IMHO. Having said that the Yijing is board enough that Buddhist philosophy would apply if one desires so. Iconically, the same can be said of the Buddhist philosophy being so encompassing that Yijing seems seamlessly fit into the doctrine. That's the catch 22.

We must understand that Yijing and Buddhism are born from 2 very different traditions. Yijing came from ancient knowledge of the land, that is the middle kingdom (China). It is quite a specific set of circumstances. This is unmistakably obvious and fundamental in the classic of change. Buddhism on the other hand came from Hindu tradition. Vedic philosophy has gone beyond the knowledge of the land by the time Buddhism emerged as a new philosophy/religion. It has gone deep into reasoning almost platonic. So few remininaces of traditional knowledge of the land can be found in the Vedic. In fact, Buddhism seems to down play the importance of traditional knowledge of the land in all its teachings, while the Yijing retains much of it (ie the arrangements of the 8 trigrams). Traditional knowledge is also held in high regards by the authors of the Yijing and by the scholars who study it subsequently. This is the reason that Yijing is highly emperical in nature even in modern times despite the fact that some Confucian scholar during Song and Ming dynasty started to view the Yijing and other ancient Chinese disciplines (ie Daoism) through the lens of Buddhism. The idea of Wuji/Taiji is a relatively new "phenomenon" (pun intended). The simple truth is there is no reference whatsoever of Wuji (figuratively absolute zero or nothingness) can be found in the Yijing text! Wuji/Taiji is a result of applying reasoning onto Yijing; thus, allowing the Confucian reasoning/philosophical schools of thoughts to interpret the Yijing as they see fit. It is a matter of the end justifying the means. There is nothing wrong technically but we must remain informed and vigilant in discerning the approaches otherwise we'll fail to see the light.

BTW, Laozi's Dao De Jing and the Yijing are in my mind closely related. Both are deeply rooted in traditional knowledge. This would be a different topic altogether so I will leave it for now.

I have 3 books on I Ching as well some i downloaded which was buddhist, i used the coins and the sticks. But i want to get back into it properly and really try and learn it, like you said its very hard to find a teacher and myself has been mostly self study!

You can practically seize the hexagrams (Na Gua) in any way, form or shape. Again beware of the end justifying the means. Please make sure whatever that you learn to use is relevent to the theoretical core of Yijing. So I would suggest taking time to learn the methods and decide on your own what's the best.

Hmm i will have to read it all a few times and get an idea on how to start out!

Good idea.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[David Jamieson]

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[fiercest tiger]

hehehe That is pretty cool dude!