knuckle conditioning

[viper]

How would one go about conditioning the pheonix knuckle fist?
And leapord fist?

Any thoughts

[David Jamieson]

use it in the fashion it is meant to be used on a device such as a heavy bag.

Both these techniques are used for soft tissue attacks and whatever device you use to get used to force feedback with these handforms should approximate the soft tissues.

phoenix eye is sometimes used inbetween ribs, but mostly is for small point striking to nerve bundles and soft areas. Same with leopard fist (assuming your leopard fist is the same as teh others I have seen and use within the styles I practice.)

also good is a 'bob' dummy. or, a side of beef a la rocky! (waste of good meat though)

[BruceSteveRoy]

what i do since i dont have a heavy bag in my house and i like to condition my hands in my free time is to buy a Makiwara board and use that for striking. also (again assuming your leopard is the same as i am familiar with) you can do leapoard fist push ups. very uncomfortable and i recommend doing them with your knees on the floor and wrap your wrists for additional support. it is very easy to injure the wrist trying this so proper support is crucial. hope that helps.

[bodhitree]

In my opinion there is no value in any knuckle conditioning and all you will do is condition yourself for arthitis. You would be better off training tecnique with that time and money.

[David Jamieson]

if you are going to use hard surfaces, you will need dit da jow to help the healing process. makawari board and hard floors are doable, but you'll pay for it later if you forgo the massage and medicine part.

[Ben Gash]

Sandbag and dummy.

[WinterPalm]

I've always wondered what it would take to do a phoenix eye pushup from the feet with no additional support. Good luck.

I'd say to talk to your Sifu or whomever you study under for what they consider the best methods. Most kung fu styles have a form of iron palm which is great for conditioning these fist formations. I currently use a steel shot bag to condition the phoenix and leopard fist.

[TenTigers]

I am wondering-if you say you do not have the means to hang a heavybag, how could you mount a makiwara? A properly constructed makiwara has the pad mounted on a board that offers a little spring resistance, firm yet with a little give. The wall mounted foam pads with the canvas covers, if they are wall mounted, will only cause damage. The body, arm, wrist, hand will absorb the force and stress and will be injured.
The idea that a makiwara, or knuckle pushups are to toughen the striking surface is based purley on ignorance of unqualified instructors. These methods were soley designed to strengthen the structure of the wrist, hand, body, NOT toughen or put callousses on them. That is simply a byproduct of the trainng, not the purpose. The more "conditioned" the hand, the longer and harder one can hit the makiwara. period.
Pushups on the leopard fists should never be done with wrist support. The whole idea is to develop the structures of the hand and wrist to be able to withstand the impact of the strike. Using wrist support only prevents this from occurring.
GRADUAL and CONSISTANT training is what is required-in everything.
There are very specific methods for developing the phoenix-eye strike. Your Sifu should show this to you. If you do not have these, there is only one reason-youare not actually training under the guidance of a Sifu. Simply learning a conditioning method, without knowing proper power issueing, tactical methods, etc is useless. Pheonix eye is not only for soft tissue. We strike many areas of the face and head with phoenix-eye as well. Be careful what you "learn" from the internet.

[BruceSteveRoy]

or using a support on the wrist could help a person gradually build up to doing it unassisted.

[Yum Cha]

Phoenix Eye Pushups -

The key as mentioned, is to do them slowly and gradually, building up over time, and to use jau and massage afterwards if you don't want to hurt your hands.

do knuckle/fist pushups on earth/grass as per normal, with fists parallel to body, not perpendicular first. Than, make a phoenix fist, with the extended knuckle meeting the ground at about 45 degrees, suppoting most your weight on the other knuckles. When you try it, you'll see what I mean.

As it gets stronger, at the top of your push up, roll your fist up onto the extended phoenix knuckle. Start on softer ground like grass, move up to harder earth, and eventually maybe pavement. The wrist action in the roll-up is also important in the training.

Likewise with bag striking. At the top of the bag, where the straps hang, the bag is often a bit softer, as the filling isn't all there, or packed. On a lot of bags this is head height. Try attacking that soft bit of the bag, and work your way down to the harder parts.

I agree, phoenix is not designed for attacking hard targets. Working a bag, the objective is targeting, put dots on a bag and try to nail them.

In my training the phoenix is not used interchangably with the regular fist, it is a different tool, used in a different manner on different targets.

Training to use the phoenix is serious business, and you can permanently damage your hand if you don't know how to make one, or if you train it incorrectly, and I can tell you that most of the pictures I've seen on how to make a phoenix fist are not the way I have been taught to make a phoenix fist. And most people try to train it over weeks, not years. You should follow the instructions of your teacher on this one.

[viper]

Thankyou all very much the main reason i asked is to see everyone elses ideas I can already do leopard fist pushups i do it without wrist support. Also inregards to conditioning i am well aware of the iron palm we have and i know from seeing other foolish people try to become just as conditioned as those who do iron palm etc have dier results. I thankyou all very much for your time. I also thankyou all for not turning this thread into a farce.

[Shaolin]

How would one go about conditioning the pheonix knuckle fist?
And leapord fist?

Any thoughts

You ask your master, and when he says that you're not ready, you go practice something else.