Pai An

[Michael Dasargo]

It was a treat to see Ba Bu`s Pai An. I really enjoy this drill and we do it often. Robert, I remember you saying on more than one occasion that the Pai An is a good method of training the differant aspects of TL. I would love to expand on this, maybe a new topic `hint hint`.


Hey Robert/Yu Shan,

Sorry for jumping the gun on this one, but I think Pai An is a great topic.

It is to my understanding that Pai An means to Slap and Press; whereas "pressing" is used to feel the amount of yielding or resistance, much like how you softly poke someones belly to see how far you can go before there is resistance.

If I'm not mistaken, when someone attempts to "Zhan Nian", you "Pai An" like flicking sticky rice off your fingertips via Feng Shou. Although you can train Zhan Nian in Pai An, I beleive the focus of Pai An is countering the sticky fighter. In 7 Star at least, there is a seperate "Zhan Nian" drill that trains sticking and leaking abilities. In fact, there is a section that presses before rebounding off the opponents rigidity.

In 8 Step, I understand the goal is to have superior Ting skills to even stick while someone is attempting to "shake you off".

Another advantage of the Pai An drill is to develop yielding capabilities and quickness via "swooping", simultaneous defense and offense, and closed door movements.

I actually learned some fine details about Pai An through -N-. If I've made any mistakes in my understanding, please correct me.

Thanks,
M.Dasargo

[mantis108]

Hi Michael, Jim, and All,

Thanks for bringing the Pai An topic to light. I totally agreed that there should be a thread dedicated to this drill. Actually it would be great to have more threads to talk about drills in Mantis.

I digged up some of the old post that I had before to kick off my end of discussion.

Pai An (slap press or slap desk) also known as Yan Qing Po Shou (Ying Qing’s Counter Hands) has many variations. Pai An Sao Tang is perhaps the most complex and demanding of these variations. Grandmaster Chiu Chuk Kai of Taiji Praying Mantis taught a version of Pai An, which is called Xiao Kaimen (little open door). It is very similar to most other PM styles' Pai An; furthermore, he taught an extra piece, Dai Kaimen (large open door). The Dai and the Xiao Kaimen can be practiced separately or link together as one form. It is believe that the Dai Kaimen is not widely practiced today in the Mantis community. The linking as a form doesn't mean that Pai An is a form per se. They are generally regarded as separate drills in CCK TCPM (TCPM for short) tradition. There are also 2 ways of doing the last kicking section of the Pai An in TCPM. One way is to perform 2 low kicks, which is relatively easy to master. The other way, Sao Tang, is done with 3 spectacular kicks namely, tan tui (front snap kick), siao tang (floor sweeping kick) and bai lin tui (lotus kick). This combination and it is counter found in this section illustrates the essential torso method of praying mantis kung fu.

The basic break down of the Pai An or Xiao Kaimen will show that there are about 3 different pieces of drills. The first part is a variation of Wei Gwa Shou (outer hanging punch). The second part is Zhan Nien (contact and stick). Finally, Sao Tang (Floor Sweeping), which is Shan Zhuan Teng Nuo body method. Wei Gwa Shou has a Fanche (waterwheel) quality to it and Zhan nien is obviously mantis sticking skills. Adding Sao Tang, it is pretty much mantis skills in a nutshell; therefore, IMHO Pai An has tremendous value in the PM system.

The last section of Pai An (Sao Tang) is indeed a kick combo. The counter side would do a different kick combo. The interesting thing is that both sides can take turns in drilling the 6 moves (3 for the advancing side and 3 for the retreating side) back and forth, over and over again. It is quite taxing even if it is only ten repetitions each round. So I would suggest doing five reps in the beginning and build up from there. This drill is basically the Shan Zhuan Teng Nuo (SZTN). It is not just about kicking. After drilling these moves flawlessly, we can then add in or rather break down the drill into applications (ie takedowns and/or escape) where SZTN are fully applied. That means we can see the full extend of SZTN in close quarter combat. BTW, multiple partners can be introduced if the escape scenario is desired. Also ground grappling techniques can be drilled together with takedown. This would be more of an individual choice of course.

Pai An in TCPM can also be done with 2 low kicks instead of the 3 kicks combo. In that case, the timing of the hands and legs becomes more important. So classical PM drill such as Pai An is rather versatile and loaded with good techniques.

Hope this will get the ball rolling. I would love to hear others thought on the subject as well.

Warm regards

Robert

[TaichiMantis]

Oh man, I need video to understand this...

[Oso]

I have some video of Master Shi working yu shan over with pai an...if he pays me enough I won't show it to anyone else.

[yu shan]

Umm, what was the name of that fancy beer you like Oso?

Was it the video of me learning a new section?

[bung bo]

Don't leave me out. I like fancy beer too.

I also find Pai An to be a compendium of PM techs. PM teaches to flow from one tech to the next "always advancing and never retreating." I, for one, have learn a lot about sticking and the "swooping" Dasargo mentioned. One of my shixiong is a big fan of the "swooping." This drill has also helped me develop the ting jing energy that has been mentioned.
I learned the kicks recently and see how fast you have to "whip" yourself around. I like everything in Pai An I have been taught so far and feel like it has helped my skill grow. Pai An=Good stuff

[Oso]

yea, from Tampa 2 years ago. have you gotten all of it now? can I see it this weekend?


we worked the little bit I know in class tonight.


The beer is Tasgall Ale...we shall consume some this weekend.

D, what you doing this weekend? why aren't you coming over?

[bung bo]

Hmmm....Tasgall Ale. That's one to add to the list. I'm on a Warsteiner kick these days.

Oso, sorry I can't come over. This weekend D is having hernia sugery (sing it, don't say it), but I would if I could. I know that black eye payback is coming back to me sometime. Maybe this is something telling me that I'm not ready for a bear paw to the head yet.

[Oso]

"D" as in you?????

Hernia 'sugery' ????



been there, done that...twice...no fun. you can't do a sit up for weeks...can't really stand up straight to pizz for a while either.


and, no payback for the black eye. as a matter of fact, I just posted some pics from that weekend up at the new school. All the new students are like 'Is that you, Shifu, with a black eye?' lol, btw, you're 6'6'' and 320#

not really, I just tell them that it was my first experience with Pong Lai...which it was.

ok, enough derailing...back to the Pai An....

[bung bo]

Oso---Lol. I did mean surgery and not sugery. Maybe I'll ask for the upgrade package.....you know, since they'll be around we1nerville anyway.

Your students must be in awe of the 145#, 5'8" fence post that gave YOU a black eye.

I agree, enough derailing. Pai An is awesome. That's what we're here for.

[Oso]

ok, how the hell did you get a hernia? you can pm me so we dont' clutter this thread up...however, some of you guys out there who really know some mantis need to chime in so we STFU!!!!

most of my senior students know you gave me the black eye.

[yu shan]

Thank you Mike for jumping in, I always appreciate your input, always a good read. And I understand this to be slap and press as well.

This "swooping" is there a Chinese translation for this? This motion of yielding is a nice little trick to get out of the way, but I follow up immediately with next strike coming right back at ya. I have noticed some students having trouble with this swooping. When Master Shr taught us this, I noticed he put emphasis on this yielding twice in the drill. The peeps having trouble, it is easy to demonstrate why you yield, you can get hit easier by not yielding.

Hi Robert

Thanks for making the effort of digging the old post up, this time I will print this out so I will not forget.

Where to begin, OK one thing I emphasize is "fa-jing". I learned this by watching my teacher execute this drill. He whips out extra energy while applying his movements, it is apparent the extra force focusing on the jing. Also, learning wei gwa shou first has helped me with the introduction to pai an. Having a pre- understanding of zhan nien helped as well.

It makes me think about something my Shibo tells me. There is a systematic way to learn PM boxing. First you learn this, then you learn this etc. It really makes sense the way Kevin lays it out. He has told me, by this step by step way of teaching, you can be proficient with your skills within a 3 year time span.

My Teacher also will end the drill unexpectedly with bi shou and then jumps right back into you at some point in the drill, which just adds so much fun to the stressed moment of getting hit.

I have introduced the kicks and yes Robert it is taxing!

Robert, about this Xiao Kaimen and Dai Kaimen. Did you happen to show these to Kevin? I`m curious and would love to see these. I`m visiting Mantid1 in October btw.

Oso, Dustin is getting cut on today I think, he came into class last night to watch. He was in a lot of pain, poor kid. I will miss his energy in class. Tasgall Ale kicks my a$$, do they have a lite?

[-N-]

Everybody has different things they like to emphasize in the Pai An/Pak On exercise.

In the non-kicking version, I ask people to think of the sequence as 2 groups of 3 motions, where the second group is a variation of the first group.

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The idea is that one person uses the right left leaking palm attacks to the outside, then swoops or dives in with vicious killing intent using fung tung chui right down the center.

The other person counters the palm attacks and dives in with his own fung tung chui to steal the timing of that attack from the first person.

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At the start of the second group of 3 motions, the first person fung the counter-attacking punch and gives a simultaneous right leaking palm. This is a trap, because he has trained the other person's mind to lock onto on that attack.

Before the second person can finish responding to the right leaking palm, the first person switches to a variation where he uses a left slap parry and a right kwun jeong. This is very treacherous because he has patterned a response, and then interrupts it on the second execution.

The other person counters the kwun jeong with ou lou choi punch. First person counters that with the diving fung tung chui.

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After the second group of 3 motions, the whole sequence continues with each person doing the opposite side and so on.

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Details:

- Some people stick and listen too much with the fung which makes them slow.

- When the other person fung, you have to detect and leak instantaneously.

- The diving punch is like a cruise missile. It hugs the terrain and comes in low and fast over the person's countering motions. It is done with a burst of speed that accelerates the timing over the previous motions.

- Patterning the other person's response and interrupting him is critical.

- Listening is done with minimal energy. You read the reflected energy. It is like radar. You don't blast the enemy with a powerful long pulse that he can read and use to get a lock on you. You use the least amount possible so that it is hard for him to detect, but you are tuned to read it as it reflects back.

- If you detect the other person trying to read your energy, you neutralize any reflections and counter attack immediately so he cannot get a lock on you.

- Slap parry does not swat. It uses short force.

- Be aware if you have a dead hand. It is like in the expression about broadsword skill. "Single broadsword, observe hand(w/o the sword). Double broadsword, observe running(meaning footwork).

There's other interesting stuff too, but these are some of the ones that come up a lot.

[Oso]

-N-, wow...great anylisis of what I think I know about pai an...and at the same time some good overall tactical fighting thoughts...but, it's late and I'm on my second bourbon and I'm on vacation after tomorrow...so, I'll reread and get back to this thread later.

one thing: you use the word 'trap' where I would use the word 'draw'. I think we mean the same thing in that you trap the opponent into a response they can't help but give thereby drawing or luring them into your response.

[-N-]

one thing: you use the word 'trap' where I would use the word 'draw'. I think we mean the same thing in that you trap the opponent into a response they can't help but give thereby drawing or luring them into your response.

Heya Matt,

...mmmm, bourbon. Hehehe.

Yep, re trap. I almost didn't want to use that word. I don't mean it in the kf sense as a trapping hands kind of thing. I only mean it in the generic sense as trap/trick/draw. Mantis is a mind game played at lighting speed. You set up traps for the opponent, and when he takes the bait, you take advantage and go for the kill.

My teacher used to laugh and say, "Praying Mantis first attack is not the real attack." I've added the corollary, "Except for when it is."

Additional detail:

- Leaking palm often is thrown too wide. To use another military analogy, leaking palm is like an Apache gunship using terrain for cover. It slips in fast, close, and unseen by using the opponent's arm and shoulder to block his periphereal vision of the attack until it's too late.