Forms with weights

[SevenStar]

Ok, that's one.


Actually there is a back fist motion in the swinging of a bat. If you swing right handed then your left hand makes a back fist motion.

I understand that they are not exactly the same motion but I was addressing _William_'s point about how any sports motion with weight added will interfere with the proper coordination. In my original post I was stating that this wasn't 100% true.

With the quotes above, it's obvious that some people have gotten hurt while training with ankle weights.

Now I still don't believe that the use of ankle weights is bad. But maybe they're just bad if used incorectly or in only some motions.

But then again, any fitness/weight equipment could be harmful if used incorrectly.

the backfist motion is not a stopping point - if you follow through, you will rotate the arm and continue the swing. Now, if you stop at that motion, sure, you could cause a problem.

[Chief Fox]

the backfist motion is not a stopping point - if you follow through, you will rotate the arm and continue the swing. Now, if you stop at that motion, sure, you could cause a problem.

Like I said, I understand that they are not the exact same motion.

And also, like I said, any fitness/weight equipment could be harmful if used incorrectly.

I've seen people slightly hyper extend their knee simply by throwing a careless, sloppy front snap kick with no weights.

I think the people getting hurt with this equipment are using it improperly. All resistance equipment should be used with control and proper form. The control reduces the chance of injury.

[SevenStar]

Like I said, I understand that they are not the exact same motion.

And also, like I said, any fitness/weight equipment could be harmful if used incorrectly.

I've seen people slightly hyper extend their knee simply by throwing a careless, sloppy front snap kick with no weights.

I think the people getting hurt with this equipment are using it improperly. All resistance equipment should be used with control and proper form. The control reduces the chance of injury.

agreed - but at the same time, that's why it's a bad idea training wise. Now we're getting back into what william was talking about. punching really slow with heavy weight really isn't helping your punch at all - wrong speed, bad timing, etc. you're not training at the speed your body will be performing. just like isometrics, which work at the specific point you are holding the posture. you would be better off just hitting a heavy bag then punching slowly with heavy weight.

[Chief Fox]

agreed - but at the same time, that's why it's a bad idea training wise. Now we're getting back into what william was talking about. punching really slow with heavy weight really isn't helping your punch at all - wrong speed, bad timing, etc. you're not training at the speed your body will be performing. just like isometrics, which work at the specific point you are holding the posture. you would be better off just hitting a heavy bag then punching slowly with heavy weight.

Punching in a controlled manner with resistance develops strength and endurance through a range of motion. Notice how I didn't put "speed or quickness" in there.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way saying this is the best or only way to do this but it could be an important part of a well rounded routine that includes bag work, shadow boxing and even isometrics.

Also, I just read Ross Enamait's book (Never Gymless). In it, he discusses isometrics in detail. He says that studies show that isometrics can increase strength up to 20° to either side of the point being worked through a range of motion. For this reason he recommends doing isometrics at a few points through your range of motion. he doesn't say that it's a huge part of your routine, but he does include it.

One last thing, let's apply your comment about isometrics to the horse stance. Which is after all an isometric hold. Are you saying that the horse stance only increases strength, flexibility and endurance at the position being held? Or does holding a horse stance contribute to overall leg strength?

[SevenStar]

Punching in a controlled manner with resistance develops strength and endurance through a range of motion. Notice how I didn't put "speed or quickness" in there.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way saying this is the best or only way to do this but it could be an important part of a well rounded routine that includes bag work, shadow boxing and even isometrics.

eh... I think you're reaching on that one. I definitely wouldn't do it as part of a regimen, but we each have our preferences.

Also, I just read Ross Enamait's book (Never Gymless). In it, he discusses isometrics in detail. He says that studies show that isometrics can increase strength up to 20° to either side of the point being worked through a range of motion. For this reason he recommends doing isometrics at a few points through your range of motion. he doesn't say that it's a huge part of your routine, but he does include it.

doing it at a few points and not just one, as typically seen, makes sense. you are working multiple ranges of motion. Now, from a specificity standpoint, even in this manner they wouldn't be used in fight training. If I'm not mistaken, he doesn't mention them in the fight training exercises in his book The Complete Boxer's Workout, either - I gotta check on that though. The 20 degree thing is interesting, I hadn't heard that.

One last thing, let's apply your comment about isometrics to the horse stance. Which is after all an isometric hold. Are you saying that the horse stance only increases strength, flexibility and endurance at the position being held? Or does holding a horse stance contribute to overall leg strength?

yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying. take someone and only let them do horse stance training. take the same person after several months and put them in a scissors (twisted horse) stance. I'm willing to bet his twisted horse will be not be as strong as his horse - he hasn't been holding that same position for months, as he was only doing ma bu. A static posture won't strengthen throughout full ranges of motion.

[Chief Fox]

Well it looks like now we're on a different subject but what the hey.

I can't recommend "Never Gymless" enough. Ross actually dedicates an entire section to isometrics.

He describes how isometrics have helped him gets past sticking points in other exercises. The one armed chin for example. He was able to work the specific angle where he was having trouble and was eventually able to move through it.

Another point he makes is how isometrics can be used to develop strength in sport specific movements such as punching. He talks about "starting strength" because each punch starts from a static position. He uses isometrics to build strength and power from that specific angle.

So if we apply this same line of thought to the horse stance. The isometric hold could, theoretically, build explosive power from a low starting position.

Of course, Ross explains all of this much better than I could ever hope to. I deffinately recommend the book.

I'll say one more thing on the subject of hand and ankle weights then I'll be done because I think we may have worn the subject out by now.

Many boxers, towards the end of long fight, begin to lower their hands. Their arms and shoulders simply do not have the endurance to stay raised in a guarded position after giving and taking punches for many rounds. Could hand weights assist in developing endurance required for this specific task? Maybe? Just a thought but I may actually be reaching on that one too.

Decent discussion anyways. Thanks.

[SevenStar]

Well it looks like now we're on a different subject but what the hey.

I can't recommend "Never Gymless" enough. Ross actually dedicates an entire section to isometrics.

He describes how isometrics have helped him gets past sticking points in other exercises. The one armed chin for example. He was able to work the specific angle where he was having trouble and was eventually able to move through it.

Another point he makes is how isometrics can be used to develop strength in sport specific movements such as punching. He talks about "starting strength" because each punch starts from a static position. He uses isometrics to build strength and power from that specific angle.

So if we apply this same line of thought to the horse stance. The isometric hold could, theoretically, build explosive power from a low starting position.

Of course, Ross explains all of this much better than I could ever hope to. I deffinately recommend the book.

I'll check that book out. What would your low starting position be used for in a thighs parallel horse? theoretically, I can see what you're saying, but realistically, would you fight from such a stance? Or would you do your stance training from a higher stance?

I'll say one more thing on the subject of hand and ankle weights then I'll be done because I think we may have worn the subject out by now.

Many boxers, towards the end of long fight, begin to lower their hands. Their arms and shoulders simply do not have the endurance to stay raised in a guarded position after giving and taking punches for many rounds. Could hand weights assist in developing endurance required for this specific task? Maybe? Just a thought but I may actually be reaching on that one too.

Decent discussion anyways. Thanks.

that's part of the purpose of the speed bag. but yeah, I could see that working. shadow box, and between rounds place weight in your hands and hold your guard up for the duration of the rest period.

[Burning Palm]

Isn't this an old idea that has actually been a training method for many, many years? Isn't that what the iron kungfu rings are for?