Page 2 of 11 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 161

Thread: Economic State of Shaolin Temple today

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Xi'an, P.R.C.
    Posts
    1,699
    On the last page with all the discussion about what the living conditions are, it IS a kind of wierd complicated issue. To give some perspective, here's a couple pics I took in the area surrounding Xi'an, technically part of the same municipality:

    This is a typical kitchen with "simple appliances":

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/17497713@N00/230811993/

    You can see the floor in the kitchen is brick but in the rest of the house it is packed earth. (dirt) On the left is a larger stove, home made out of bricks and powered with wood scraps as coal is too expensive for this family. That funny handle on the right is the billows to get the fire hot enough for Chinese cooking. You can see a smaller propane powered burner in the background too though. I was too embarrassed to take a phot of the rest of their home. This wasn't a tourist site. It was a friends classmates home. No heat. No indoor plumbing.

    This is one of those "yards" that were mentioned earlier:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/17497713@N00/230812272/

    What wasn't mentioned is that they are generally communal. You might not have a yard in Seattle but you don't have them in cities in China either. The houses you can see surrounding the yard, housing numerous families, are not heated and have no plumbing. There is an outhouse out back and a water pump in the yard to collect water for drinking and washing. The entrance to the "residences", which are either single or double rooms, look like this:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/17497713@N00/230812442/

    Again no heating. Just a single room with enough space under the door that mice can come in and visit. The walls and floor are either bare concrete concrete with cheap primer covering it.

    These pictures were taken in the area around Xi'an which is a much richer area than the area around Dengfeng. The people here mostly don't have to worry about starvation but 2 years ago there was a disastrous flood and I expect some people went hungry then. Some 500,000 yuan were raised in disaster relief, 50,000 actually made it to the area.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    156
    Quote Originally Posted by bungbukuen View Post
    Wall – just because you are getting your China facts mixed up there is no need to feel frustrated.
    You know, it's unusual, you've managed to somewhat irritate me That speaks volumes about your trolling skills, as I very rarely get irritated, bravo!

    I conclude by saying:

    1 - I'm not getting my China facts mixed up (I'm actually partly saying the same thing as you are, if you cared to read what I write ... )

    2 - I'm stating my China facts as experienced by me, in first person, for months, in Henan, in various trips

    The families of the statistics? I've seen a variety of them, been guest at their homes, made friends with their sons and daughters involved in KungFu schools and related businesses ... businesses they can have thanks solely to Shaolin tourism, otherwise they would be plowing a field for some meagre subsistance food, like most people in rural Henan do, or trying to move to a bigger city to work in dead-end poverty line manufacturing.
    Of course, many are still doing that, but Shaolin business has helped just as many carve for themselves a better life as KungFu teachers, shop assistants, tourist guides, restaurant operators, and may other jobs that would otherwise simply not exist in dengFeng.
    It does not seem a difficult concept to understand...

    But I guess you've lived there all your life so you know best ...

    I've made the contribution I could to this thread with all the info I have on the subject, so I have nothing further useful to add ... and have no interest to be lured in an obvious troll

    Wall

    PS. I've just read your post below: as expected ... another attempt at trolling, this time by making it personal, with a little flattery to come across "nice"
    Last edited by wall; 09-01-2006 at 07:48 AM.
    > it is your mind, that creates this world >

  3. #18
    No one is trying to steal the show from you Wall. Just correcting your facts. No one is arguing that the hustle and bustle has helped a number of families. But with regards to the overall population they are still at the same levels and lower with the rest of the province. Unless you are claiming that income levels produced by the Zhengzhou municipal statistical burea are wrong and that your few months living in China and network of friends provides a much more reliable and accurate statistical base

    It is good to see that you are trying to learn more and even trying to integrate into Chinese culture. You should be proud of your efforts as most people never make it down there. But do not assume that living in China for a few months makes you an informed expert. You are still a rookie and have years to go.

    BBK
    Last edited by bungbukuen; 09-01-2006 at 07:06 AM.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    koko
    Posts
    2,723
    LOL

    It's fun to watch folks try to out-pretentious each other!

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Fremont, CA, U.S.A.
    Posts
    47,947

    out-pretentious

    Come on now, unkokusai, that's what forums are for. There's nothing like a good troll to fan the flames, eh?

    I think the main dispute here between bbk & w is based on perspective. I know w has been to Shaolin many times, but he's probably stayed only in that region - Dengfeng city, Shaolin valley, etc. Dengfeng county actually encompasses a lot more and many of those extended areas are much poorer. Only the areas immediately surrounding Shaolin and Songshan have benefitted from the tourist boom. I've been taken far off the beaten path in Dengfeng to some of the impoverished villages and that's what's lowering these stats that bbk keeps quoting. That's hours away on sketchy dirt roads.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    koko
    Posts
    2,723
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    Come on now, unkokusai, that's what forums are for.

    I know, and I love it! Great entertainment value. The only thing better really is the 100-page "Oh yeah? Fight me, then! Oh, never mind..." threads.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    156
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    ... he's probably stayed only in that region - Dengfeng city, Shaolin valley, etc. Dengfeng county actually encompasses a lot more and many of those extended areas are much poorer. Only the areas immediately surrounding Shaolin and Songshan have benefitted from the tourist boom ...
    Spot on Gene, I've been talking all along about the DengFeng town and immediately surrounding area only, as clearly and repeatedly explained, but Bung just wants to read it otherwise so he can troll along
    I've noticed he's trying it with you in the 'Abbot pimps his ride' thread, where you have "sugar coated a nasty illegal act just to boost up your mate the abbot"

    Last edited by wall; 09-02-2006 at 12:19 AM.
    > it is your mind, that creates this world >

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,432
    How is it an illegal act if one govt. institution gives to another govt. employee?

    ???

  9. #24
    PRC Nerd Law Facts:
    PRC law defines bribery as the giving of monies or goods to personnel of State organizations or public servants for improper benefits. Improper benefits are also defined as excessive amounts of money or gifts, and are considered bribes.

    Under PRC law, government administrative personnel may NOT:

    a) Receive gifts while discharging official duty within the PRC. Gifts are gift articles, gift money, vouchers or goods purchased with nominal costs, whether given outright or in the name of or in the form of receptions, ceremonies, seminars, weddings and funerals;

    (b) Receive gifts in performing official duties relating to foreign parties only. Such gifts are gift articles, gift money or vouchers, and must be reported according to value.7

    According to section eight under criminal law in China, graft in the amount of more than Rmb100,000 is punishable to a minimum of 10 fixed years in prison.
    The fat abbots pimp ride is easily worth over Rmb100,000 in China.


    Source:
    PRC Criminal Law - Chapter VIII: Graft and Bribery
    Provisions Against Offering and Accepting Gifts by State Administrative Organs or Personnel in Performing Official Duties within the PRC (《国家行政机关及其工作人员在国內公务活动中不得贈送和接受礼品的规定》), art. 2-4.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,432
    Quote Originally Posted by bungbukuen View Post
    PRC Nerd Law Facts:
    PRC law defines bribery as the giving of monies or goods to personnel of State organizations or public servants for improper benefits. Improper benefits are also defined as excessive amounts of money or gifts, and are considered bribes.

    Under PRC law, government administrative personnel may NOT:

    a) Receive gifts while discharging official duty within the PRC. Gifts are gift articles, gift money, vouchers or goods purchased with nominal costs, whether given outright or in the name of or in the form of receptions, ceremonies, seminars, weddings and funerals;

    (b) Receive gifts in performing official duties relating to foreign parties only. Such gifts are gift articles, gift money or vouchers, and must be reported according to value.7

    According to section eight under criminal law in China, graft in the amount of more than Rmb100,000 is punishable to a minimum of 10 fixed years in prison.
    The fat abbots pimp ride is easily worth over Rmb100,000 in China.


    Source:
    PRC Criminal Law - Chapter VIII: Graft and Bribery
    Provisions Against Offering and Accepting Gifts by State Administrative Organs or Personnel in Performing Official Duties within the PRC (《国家行政机关及其工作人员在国內公务活动中不得贈送和接受礼品的规定》), art. 2-4.
    Yeah, but this was a STATE organization giving another person in a STATE organization a STATE owned car for their use.

    Yes? Even if it was a personal owned car which is extremely doubtful, it was a STATE organization giving an employee in a STATE organization a gift.

    Do you understand the difference?

    No law was broken, give me a break.

    Anyway I don't get your high and mightiness over this. Who the heck cares if somebody gets a gift? I don't care if you give him a SUV ... why should I? Why should you?

    You really think the Shaolin 'temple' is some 'temple'? It's not, it's like China Martial Arts Disneyland.
    Last edited by lunghushan; 09-03-2006 at 01:33 AM.

  11. #26
    Originally Quoted by Lunghushan
    Even if it was a personal owned car which is extremely doubtful, it was a STATE organization giving an employee in a STATE organization a gift.
    Hey legal wizard - it does not matter if it was the Zheng zhou municipal government, the Dengfeng municipal government, or even Dengfeng Auto Corp. themselves who donated the gift. Shi Yongxin is still a public servant to the PRC, and the Abbott of the Shaolin Temle which also falls under the category of a state run organziation, who recieved an excessive gift. Of course how you want to interpret that meaning under criminal law is up to you.

    If you do not like my Nerd Facts, or feel that they are somehow inaccurate, please take it up with the sources and post your own facts with sources. I do not mind.

    Overall I thought it was interesting to present another side to this story.

    Buddhists, public servants, state organizaitons, corporations, Shaolin, or any other individual, are not above the law.

    Posted by Lunghushan:
    You really think the Shaolin 'temple' is some 'temple'? It's not, it's like China Martial Arts Disneyland.
    Yes I think it is a legitamate temple, and yes I think it is the Disneyland of MA.

    BBK
    Last edited by bungbukuen; 09-04-2006 at 12:02 AM.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,432
    Quote Originally Posted by bungbukuen View Post
    Hey legal wizard - it does not matter if it was the Zheng zhou municipal government, the Dengfeng municipal government, or even Dengfeng Auto Corp. themselves who donated the gift.


    Yes I think it is a legitamate temple, and yes I think it is the Disneyland of MA.

    BBK
    Not a legal wizard, but obviously you aren't either. If you can't make the distinction between a kick-back for political gain and the government doing something.

    Why do you think it's a legitimate temple?

    In China these days everything is about money. The people pretending to be monks in temples are pretending. You'd be hard pressed to find a real monk these days.

    Anyways I'm done with this conversation. It's obvious that some people are believing the marketing B.S., and having a hard time understanding that it's just marketing B.S.

    I suppose you think that Mickey Mouse is really a mouse, and not some guy in a mouse costume. It's the same with the 'Shaolin' temple. Those aren't monks -- those are guys in monks costume.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    "little" belgium
    Posts
    56
    Hey Gene,

    LiPeng his family moved back to their hometown in Hunan Province (near Zhang Jia Jie). His father is still teaching and celebrated his 60th birthday 2 weeks ago.

    About Tjun Mei...her taiji ( as well as her KF) is really not bad at all (hey if you train 8-10 hours a day for 10-15 years ) ..don't know witch part the showed in the PBS Documentary

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,432
    Quote Originally Posted by xiao View Post
    Hey Gene,

    LiPeng his family moved back to their hometown in Hunan Province (near Zhang Jia Jie). His father is still teaching and celebrated his 60th birthday 2 weeks ago.

    About Tjun Mei...her taiji ( as well as her KF) is really not bad at all (hey if you train 8-10 hours a day for 10-15 years ) ..don't know witch part the showed in the PBS Documentary
    It said she did taiji but what she showed was extremely stiff -- I think that's why I was confused. It must not have been taiji at all.

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by lunghushan View Post
    Not a legal wizard, but obviously you aren't either. If you can't make the distinction between a kick-back for political gain and the government doing something.

    Why do you think it's a legitimate temple?

    In China these days everything is about money. The people pretending to be monks in temples are pretending. You'd be hard pressed to find a real monk these days.

    Anyways I'm done with this conversation. It's obvious that some people are believing the marketing B.S., and having a hard time understanding that it's just marketing B.S.

    I suppose you think that Mickey Mouse is really a mouse, and not some guy in a mouse costume. It's the same with the 'Shaolin' temple. Those aren't monks -- those are guys in monks costume.
    I think that religion, politics and money have been intertwined in various ways in China for centuries - the same way they are in the West. I recall reading about complaints of Chinese people durring the Yuan Dynasty over Tibetan monks robbing and cannibalizing travelers. I'm not sure how accurate that is, but I guess my point is that it could be worse. Catering to tourists is preferable to catering with tourists.

    What are your standards for a temple being "legitimate"? If catering to tourists makes you illegitimate, I would imagine that most temples that I've been to in China fail on that point, as well as the Vatican.

    What's a real monk either? Beyond someone who has taken a vow to live in a monastic order? I would imagine that Buddhas are few and far between in China these days, but I'm not sure if that's any more so than in the past.

    In Air America Robert Downy Jr. asks Mel Gibson's Character, "What kind of Buddhist runs guns?" To which he replies, "I said I was a Buddhist, I never said I was a good Buddhist."

    If you're suggesting that Buddhist monks who are trianing in kung fu to cater to tourists in the present are less legitimate than Buddhist monks who trained in kung fu to kill in the past I'd like to have that argument fleshed out a little more.


    "Buddhists, public servants, state organizaitons, corporations, Shaolin, or any other individual, are not above the law."

    In China today? Yes they are. Whether they should be or not is a different question altogether, but if government officials recieving bribes in exchange for favors weren't above the law the majority of the Chinese government would be in jail.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •