the hells angel ad

[lunghushan]

this isnt a dig at ppl who have fallen in with the wrong crowd
its about what we should or should not be encouraging

i dont think this magazine should have anything to do with the hells angels or any other criminal group.
the people in the group may have just been unfortunate but that doesnt make what they do okay
or does it ?

No, but do you think people can be helped? Do you think it's possible for former criminals to stop doing crime?

By branding them criminals for life you just keep them being criminals. What are they supposed to do for a living if they can't get a job, if the entire society thinks they're bad?

In the U.S. if you have a felony it's very hard for you to get a job. You can get a felony just from stealing a T.V. or something.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

No, but do you think people can be helped? Do you think it's possible for former criminals to stop doing crime?

By branding them criminals for life you just keep them being criminals. What are they supposed to do for a living if they can't get a job, if the entire society thinks they're bad?

In the U.S. if you have a felony it's very hard for you to get a job. You can get a felony just from stealing a T.V. or something.

Since I deal with criminality in my profession, I know I understand. From your posts, I see that you do not understand and 'that' is not okay, as it will lead you down a wrong path sooner or later.
Actually, where I live, has just as high or a higher incarceration rate than the USA.

People of course can change, this is what I do in my profession, facilitate change from criminal thinking and criminality to non-criminal thinking and non-criminality...but they have to want to for the programming/counselling to effect the greatest change.

[lunghushan]

Since I deal with criminality in my profession, I know I understand. From your posts, I see that you do not understand and 'that' is not okay, as it will lead you down a wrong path sooner or later.
Actually, where I live, has just as high or a higher incarceration rate than the USA.

People of course can change, this is what I do in my profession, facilitate change from criminal thinking and criminality to non-criminal thinking and non-criminality...but they have to want to for the programming/counselling to effect the greatest change.

No, I quickly found out from seeing the people in the jail, running into the crooked cops, and from others that I do not want to be in jail or deal with that mess.

I have several friends who are probation officers, and I find they're nice people. They agree that most people won't change, but they also agree that sometimes people's circumstances even the area in which they live contribute to their problems.

Anyway, whatever. This doesn't matter to me. If you don't get it, you don't get it.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

No, I quickly found out from seeing the people in the jail, running into the crooked cops, and from others that I do not want to be in jail or deal with that mess.

I have several friends who are probation officers, and I find they're nice people. They agree that most people won't change, but they also agree that sometimes people's circumstances even the area in which they live contribute to their problems.

Anyway, whatever. This doesn't matter to me. If you don't get it, you don't get it.

Well, speaking as a Probation Officer...it is you who has not yet grasped it.

[lunghushan]

Well, speaking as a Probation Officer...it is you who has not yet grasped it.

Okay, then tell me what exactly I am not grasping. ???

So for example, one of the guys that I was in the cell with, after I left the drunk tank with my still drunk friend (he was totally smashed the next day), was in for driving with a suspended license.

He got a suspended license because he didn't renew his license. He didn't renew his license because he didn't have the $$$, because it was a bad economy.

He said he was going to lose his job because he was out of work that day.

I don't see how he could have avoided that, really. You have to have minimum time on the job to get unemployment in the U.S., like 6 months or something, they don't just give you a license.

If he doesn't work, he doesn't eat.

So how oh esteemed Probation Officer, should he have handled that? And when he's out of jail, nowhere to go, no $$$, what is he supposed to do? Go to some homeless shelter where there are criminals who will hurt you? Homeless shelters in CA had lots of people stabbing people???

If you don't give people options then they're much more likely to make your 'criminal thinking error'.

Personally I'm so sick of the system that I'm not going to do crime. If I can't work, I can't eat. If I can't work, if I can't eat, I'm just going to starve. That's my decision.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Okay, then tell me what exactly I am not grasping. ???

So for example, one of the guys that I was in the cell with, after I left the drunk tank with my still drunk friend (he was totally smashed the next day), was in for driving with a suspended license.

He got a suspended license because he didn't renew his license. He didn't renew his license because he didn't have the $$$, because it was a bad economy.

He said he was going to lose his job because he was out of work that day.

I don't see how he could have avoided that, really. You have to have minimum time on the job to get unemployment in the U.S., like 6 months or something, they don't just give you a license.

If he doesn't work, he doesn't eat.

So how oh esteemed Probation Officer, should he have handled that? And when he's out of jail, nowhere to go, no $$$, what is he supposed to do? Go to some homeless shelter where there are criminals who will hurt you? Homeless shelters in CA had lots of people stabbing people???

If you don't give people options then they're much more likely to make your 'criminal thinking error'.

Personally I'm so sick of the system that I'm not going to do crime. If I can't work, I can't eat. If I can't work, if I can't eat, I'm just going to starve. That's my decision.

Esteemed...my colleagues will get a smile from that one

1. I strongly suspect from the state you found him in that there is more to his not having a license than just not renewing his license...like maybe suspended for DUI.


2. How could he not renew his license because of a cash problem, when he wound up in the cell by 'driving to work' while under a license suspension. But if cash was still an issue for what ever problem...maybe a bus or carpool or a friend.

3. when out, look for another job, go to a church, get a job at tim hortons (only in Canada, don't know the equivalent in the US)

And yes, I do agree that people need options.


Same or similar case to receive unemployment here in Canada

[lunghushan]

Don't get me wrong. I like probation officers. Probation officers are like the good people who help out criminals once the cops screw them over.

But the economic situation in the U.S. is what creates criminals, that and the breakdown of the family and too many freedoms and bad judgement and all that.

Ironically my drunk friend's dad was a probation officer (now retired). He said that the reason we got picked up was because of where we were walking home, and he knew the problems of the cops in that area.

He said that particular area was just a bad area to be in, and it was very easy for people to get in trouble that lived there.

Anyway, I don't know the solution. But without understanding the problem of crime you will never understand the solution. And I don't chalk it all up to bad judgement.

Yes, there is bad judgement involved but a lot of it is the economic thing. Crime tends to go up as the economy goes down.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Don't get me wrong. I like probation officers. Probation officers are like the good people who help out criminals once the cops screw them over.

But the economic situation in the U.S. is what creates criminals, that and the breakdown of the family and too many freedoms and bad judgement and all that.

Ironically my drunk friend's dad was a probation officer (now retired). He said that the reason we got picked up was because of where we were walking home, and he knew the problems of the cops in that area.

He said that particular area was just a bad area to be in, and it was very easy for people to get in trouble that lived there.

Anyway, I don't know the solution. But without understanding the problem of crime you will never understand the solution. And I don't chalk it all up to bad judgement.

Yes, there is bad judgement involved but a lot of it is the economic thing. Crime tends to go up as the economy goes down.

A bad economy does not make criminals. However, it can be a factorial influence.

I do agree with being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Do not blame the police too much...look what they have to deal with. I have met decent officers and those that are no better than the criminals they arrest. Some are modest, some have egos through the ceiling, some use just enough force, others go overboard. It is like any other job or profession...good employees and not good employees.

As a Probation Officer, I am automatically a Peace Officer. Yes I help them think better, but I also have to help protect society and so I do breach and send them back to court which can also mean custody.

[lunghushan]

Yes, it is a bad job and a lot of stress and all that so I don't blame them entirely. Without cops things would be chaos.

Anyway, the cops in my town all seem to be pretty professional and have a good attitude. They also all seem to be in good shape, which is rare. Maybe the fact that a lot of them bike around helps that out.

[Justaguy]

I was walking past the local Hells Angels club house early one morning on my way to a kung fu class. I was carrying a cup of coffee and eating a bagel, and my hands were pretty full. So, when I dropped a napkin I couldn't pick it up and just left it there. Looking up I saw a Hells Angel standing in the doorway, covered in tattoos and looking every bit the stereotype of the tough as nails outlaw biker. The look of disghust on his face as he looked at me was priceless. I turned back, rearranged the stuff in my hands and picked the litter up. I appologized, but he just turned away shaking his head...

Maybe all Hells Angels aren't so civic minded, but I'm pretty sure I was the degenerate in that encounter.

I work at a nonprofit that helps people coming out of prison find jobs. There are definitely a lot of people who I would call bad coming through my office. But the vast majority of them are in there for drug crimes. The kind of things that someone who comes from a "better background" can sum up with "When I was young and irresponsible, I was young and irresponsible" and go on to become President without people making too much of a big deal about it.

There's a guy who got there recently who teaches Shaolin. I haven't seen any of his moves, but from talking to him he's clearly been working at it for most of his life. I call him Sifu, same as I would who teaches kung fu and has spent a long time working on thier art.

As far as the Hells Angels go, I don't know any and I don't know how much their general reputation is earned, and how much is hype. It seems that in Canada they are a criminal enterprise - in the US there are allegations here and there. But at the end of the day, if you don't have anything specific to say about the individual in the mag, I wouldn't worry about it.

[lunghushan]

People are people. You know, they might do bad things and make bad decisions, but they are still people.

There was a show on T.V. the other day about how people in a factory farm were killing pigs by shooting them in the head with a bolt gun. If they didn't die they'd stand on them and asphyxiate them and then shoot them again.

They missed with one poor pig and it was crying and they just let it lay there for a long time. Unreal.

If a pig is sick a lot of time they'll just let them die off in a corner somewhere with no food or anything.

Those people are worse than many of the people in prisons.

[@PLUGO]

well, he DID have a very nice bike.

[golden arhat]

im not saying that all criminals are bad i know there are reasons im just saying that kung fu magazine shouldnt be encouraging it and thats what is wrong ok my mum is a prison officer i know why people commit crime BUT THATS NOT THE ISSUE the issue is kfm using a hells angel in an advert implying that one being in a gang is ok (it isnt) and 2 giving out the impression that the hells angels are a good group (they arent)

why did they decide to use a hells angel ?
but why not a crip or a blood or a triad ?

why? because the hells angels ahave a romance about them that theyre some sort of heroes

in reality they are a gang just like any other and we should recognise that they are not some righteous organisation ask yourself
why wouldnt u use another gang in your ads and u will probably find the reason u should not use a hells angel

[lunghushan]

It's called Freedom of Speech.

I for one am against illegal drugs. But I'm not going to gripe about 'High Times' being for illegal drug use.

Why?

Because it's called Freedom of Speech.

There are people against martial arts because they think they are violent, but I don't want to get rid of martial arts magazines just for those people.

Otherwise you have a very boring political correct society. There's enough of that already without encouraging it.

'Thought Police' are so boring. Instead of railing against having it in the magazine, how about you just rail against them, and Gene prints it in the magazine? Which is what happened, right? (Actually it was railing against being in the magazing and Gene printed that).

Anyway, suppression of speech is boring. I think just because of your comments against this I will subscribe just to show my support.

[golden arhat]

i love the magazine too please do subscribe
i just didnt like the ad and thought it was in bad taste